Why do we draw to the nuts in Omaha?

Here are 2 good examples within the past 10 minutes of why people lose so big at Omaha when making the transition from Hold 'Em. These are not meant as brag posts but good examples of why you MUST draw to the nuts and/or have some backups.

pokerstars Game #14178507955: Omaha Hi/Lo No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/12/29 - 12:42:31 (ET)
Table 'Kerstin II' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: daboozhound ($23.75 in chips)
Seat 3: Terra Ann ($13.45 in chips)
Seat 4: egonb ($5 in chips)
Seat 5: WILKEL ($29.05 in chips)
Seat 7: BabyHumvee ($26.50 in chips)
Seat 9: cfdrouillard ($22.95 in chips)
Terra Ann: posts small blind $0.10
egonb: posts big blind $0.25
sngldadof4: sits out
jokerbbad: is sitting out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BabyHumvee [Kd Js 3h As]
jokerbbad has returned
WILKEL: folds
HIGHLANDERnl leaves the table
jokerbbad leaves the table
BabyHumvee: calls $0.25
cfdrouillard: calls $0.25
daboozhound: folds
Terra Ann: calls $0.15
egonb: checks
*** FLOP *** [5s Ts 4d]
Terra Ann: checks
egonb: checks
BabyHumvee: checks
cfdrouillard: bets $0.25
Terra Ann: calls $0.25
egonb: calls $0.25
BabyHumvee: calls $0.25
*** TURN *** [5s Ts 4d] [8s]
Terra Ann: checks
egonb: checks
BabyHumvee: checks
cfdrouillard: bets $1
Terra Ann: folds
egonb: calls $1
BabyHumvee: raises $2 to $3
cfdrouillard: calls $2
egonb: calls $2
*** RIVER *** [5s Ts 4d 8s] [Ks]
egonb: checks
BabyHumvee: bets $12
cfdrouillard: calls $12
egonb: folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BabyHumvee: shows [Kd Js 3h As] (HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 8,5,4,3,A)
cfdrouillard: shows [Ah 7h 9s 4s] (HI: a flush, King high; LO: 8,7,5,4,A)
BabyHumvee collected $16.65 from pot
BabyHumvee collected $16.65 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $35 | Rake $1.70
Board [5s Ts 4d 8s Ks]
Seat 2: daboozhound (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Terra Ann (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 4: egonb (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 5: WILKEL folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: BabyHumvee showed [Kd Js 3h As] and won ($33.30) with HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 8,5,4,3,A
Seat 9: cfdrouillard showed [Ah 7h 9s 4s] and lost with HI: a flush, King high; LO: 8,7,5,4,A

(2nd one... meh, decent flop)

PokerStars Game #14178708036: Omaha Hi/Lo No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/12/29 - 12:53:16 (ET)
Table 'Kerstin II' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: daboozhound ($32.20 in chips)
Seat 4: egonb ($24 in chips)
Seat 5: WILKEL ($19.20 in chips)
Seat 6: sngldadof4 ($17.75 in chips)
Seat 7: BabyHumvee ($41.55 in chips)
Seat 9: cfdrouillard ($12.10 in chips)
WILKEL: posts small blind $0.10
sngldadof4: posts big blind $0.25
Ultra Donk: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BabyHumvee [6d As Ac 3c]
BabyHumvee: calls $0.25
cfdrouillard: calls $0.25
daboozhound: folds
egonb: folds
WILKEL: calls $0.15
sngldadof4: checks
*** FLOP *** [Kc Ah 5c]
WILKEL: checks
sngldadof4: checks
BabyHumvee: bets $0.75
cfdrouillard: calls $0.75
egonb is disconnected
WILKEL: folds
egonb is connected
sngldadof4: folds
*** TURN *** [Kc Ah 5c] [3h]
BabyHumvee: bets $1.50
brian6876 joins the table at seat #8
cfdrouillard: calls $1.50
*** RIVER *** [Kc Ah 5c 3h] [7c]
BabyHumvee: bets $11
cfdrouillard: calls $9.60 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BabyHumvee: shows [6d As Ac 3c] (HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 7,6,5,3,A)
cfdrouillard: shows [Tc Ts 2c Kd] (HI: a flush, King high)
BabyHumvee collected $11.75 from pot
BabyHumvee collected $11.75 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $24.70 | Rake $1.20
Board [Kc Ah 5c 3h 7c]
Seat 2: daboozhound folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: egonb (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: WILKEL (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: sngldadof4 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: BabyHumvee showed [6d As Ac 3c] and won ($23.50) with HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 7,6,5,3,A
Seat 9: cfdrouillard showed [Tc Ts 2c Kd] and lost with HI: a flush, King high

If I ck/call when you play me in Omaha, be very suspicious. Coolers abound in this game.

PokerStars Game #14178815125: Omaha Hi/Lo No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/12/29 - 12:59:02 (ET)
Table 'Kerstin II' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Ultra Donk ($24.65 in chips)
Seat 2: daboozhound ($31.60 in chips)
Seat 5: WILKEL ($18.40 in chips)
Seat 6: sngldadof4 ($18.10 in chips)
Seat 7: BabyHumvee ($52.85 in chips)
Seat 8: brian6876 ($24.25 in chips)
Seat 9: cfdrouillard ($14.40 in chips)
WILKEL: posts small blind $0.10
sngldadof4: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BabyHumvee [Qd 8h Ts Td]
BabyHumvee: calls $0.25
brian6876: folds
cfdrouillard: calls $0.25
Ultra Donk: folds
daboozhound: calls $0.25
WILKEL: calls $0.15
sngldadof4: checks
*** FLOP *** [Tc 3c 3s]
Raingardian joins the table at seat #4
WILKEL: checks
sngldadof4: bets $0.75
BabyHumvee: calls $0.75
cfdrouillard: calls $0.75
daboozhound: folds
WILKEL: calls $0.75
*** TURN *** [Tc 3c 3s] [Qc]
WILKEL: checks
sngldadof4: bets $9.50
BabyHumvee: calls $9.50
cfdrouillard: folds
WILKEL: folds
*** RIVER *** [Tc 3c 3s Qc] [Jh]
sngldadof4: bets $7.60 and is all-in
BabyHumvee: calls $7.60
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sngldadof4: shows [Qs Th 3h 9h] (HI: a full house, Threes full of Queens)
BabyHumvee: shows [Qd 8h Ts Td] (HI: a full house, Tens full of Threes)
BabyHumvee collected $36.60 from pot
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $38.45 | Rake $1.85
Board [Tc 3c 3s Qc Jh]
Seat 1: Ultra Donk folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: daboozhound (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: WILKEL (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 6: sngldadof4 (big blind) showed [Qs Th 3h 9h] and lost with HI: a full house, Threes full of Queens
Seat 7: BabyHumvee showed [Qd 8h Ts Td] and won ($36.60) with HI: a full house, Tens full of Threes
Seat 8: brian6876 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: cfdrouillard folded on the Turn

PokerStars Game #14178860016: Omaha Hi/Lo No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/12/29 - 13:01:20 (ET)
Table 'Kerstin II' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Ultra Donk ($24.40 in chips)
Seat 2: daboozhound ($31.35 in chips)
Seat 4: Raingardian ($24.50 in chips)
Seat 5: WILKEL ($17.40 in chips)
Seat 7: BabyHumvee ($71.60 in chips)
Seat 8: brian6876 ($36.80 in chips)
cfdrouillard will be allowed to play after the button
Ultra Donk: posts small blind $0.10
daboozhound: posts big blind $0.25
djp94: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BabyHumvee [9c Ac Ts Ks]
Raingardian: calls $0.25
WILKEL: calls $0.25
BabyHumvee: calls $0.25
brian6876: folds
Ultra Donk: calls $0.15
daboozhound: checks
*** FLOP *** [Th 9h 4d]
Ultra Donk: checks
daboozhound: checks
Raingardian: checks
WILKEL: bets $0.25
BabyHumvee: calls $0.25
Ultra Donk: folds
daboozhound: folds
Raingardian: calls $0.25
*** TURN *** [Th 9h 4d] [Kh]
Raingardian: checks
WILKEL: bets $0.25
BabyHumvee: calls $0.25
Raingardian: raises $23.75 to $24 and is all-in
WILKEL: folds
BabyHumvee said, "way to get value"
BabyHumvee: folds
Terra Ann has returned
Raingardian collected $2.65 from pot
Raingardian: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2.75 | Rake $0.10
Board [Th 9h 4d Kh]
Seat 1: Ultra Donk (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: daboozhound (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Raingardian collected ($2.65)
Seat 5: WILKEL folded on the Turn
Seat 7: BabyHumvee folded on the Turn
Seat 8: brian6876 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Just wondering why you only call to the river and don't raise on the third hand?

Villain is all-in and PokerStars won't let me take an IOU unlike Darcy in the Cincinnati Kid.

skoldpadda said:

Villain is all-in and PokerStars won't let me take an IOU unlike Darcy in the Cincinnati Kid.

Click to expand...

LOL, my brain is total crap today. gaaahhhh.

Here's another good example of an easy fold:

PokerStars Game #14181895351: Omaha Hi/Lo No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/12/29 - 15:15:12 (ET)
Table 'Kerstin II' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: BabyHumvee ($57.95 in chips)
Seat 2: sngldadof4 ($8.25 in chips)
Seat 3: StaceyP ($36.70 in chips)
Seat 4: real kisska ($3.50 in chips)
Seat 5: DogsBeater ($23 in chips)
Seat 6: Ultra Donk ($24.15 in chips)
Seat 7: #1Poker Dude ($75.60 in chips)
Seat 8: jardo007 ($14.15 in chips)
Seat 9: darkstar24 ($16.15 in chips)
Ultra Donk: posts small blind $0.10
#1Poker Dude: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BabyHumvee [4c Ks Kh As]
jardo007: folds
darkstar24: folds
BabyHumvee: raises $1 to $1.25
sngldadof4: folds
StaceyP: calls $1.25
real kisska: folds
DogsBeater: raises $21.75 to $23 and is all-in
Ultra Donk: folds
#1Poker Dude: folds
BabyHumvee said, "tempting"
BabyHumvee said, "great hand"
BabyHumvee said, "but not vs AA"
#1Poker Dude said, "do it"
BabyHumvee: folds
#1Poker Dude said, "lol"
StaceyP: calls $21.75
*** FLOP *** [2c Ts 6c]
DogsBeater said, "yes, your a 4 9 j is tempting"
*** TURN *** [2c Ts 6c] [5c]
*** RIVER *** [2c Ts 6c 5c] [Js]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
StaceyP: shows [7d Ac 7c 6d] (HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 7,6,5,2,A)
DogsBeater: shows [2d Ad 3h Ah] (HI: a pair of Aces; LO: 6,5,3,2,A)
StaceyP collected $22.65 from pot
DogsBeater collected $22.60 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $47.60 | Rake $2.35
Board [2c Ts 6c 5c Js]
Seat 1: BabyHumvee folded before Flop
Seat 2: sngldadof4 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: StaceyP showed [7d Ac 7c 6d] and won ($22.65) with HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 7,6,5,2,A
Seat 4: real kisska folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: DogsBeater (button) showed [2d Ad 3h Ah] and won ($22.60) with HI: a pair of Aces; LO: 6,5,3,2,A
Seat 6: Ultra Donk (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: #1Poker Dude (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: jardo007 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: darkstar24 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Reverse implied odds are KEY in PLO. So many people stack off with like 3rd nuts on river that it's not even funny. (read: it's funny)

kinda off topic but since this is a post about drawing to the nuts, I think its stupid when people draw to a nut straight when there is a flush draw on the board, ESPECIALLY when the cards they are holding are cards that are a different suit from the flush draw, because you lose outs when that is the case. If this ain't understood heres ex:

(random hand)
player has 9s 8s as kh

flop comes 7d 6d ac

yeah your drawing to the nuts here, but your outs are decreased cus those diamonds for that open ended straight you have won't help because someone's most likely gonna have that flush. No one should be chasing this type a draw to any type of resistance, maybe reaallll cheap and with position. Plus someone else can have the same exact draw, but have flush outs, so your just asking for trouble here.

I say a very slight exception to this is when the player has something like 9 5 8 10 on the same flop stated above. In this case you've got the nuts no matter what card comes to form that straight, and even though you lose outs for every diamond you've got more outs because your hand is far greater than a simple open ended draw. Even here, you gotta tread lightly, I wouldnt be pressed to juice up the pot thats for sure, but at the same time you kind of need to if u want to chase this draw just incase your straight comes with out the flush showing because your going to need to scoop the pot on that street most likely

skoldpadda said:

Here's another good example of an easy fold:

PokerStars Game #14181895351: Omaha Hi/Lo No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/12/29 - 15:15:12 (ET)
Table 'Kerstin II' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: BabyHumvee ($57.95 in chips)
Seat 2: sngldadof4 ($8.25 in chips)
Seat 3: StaceyP ($36.70 in chips)
Seat 4: real kisska ($3.50 in chips)
Seat 5: DogsBeater ($23 in chips)
Seat 6: Ultra Donk ($24.15 in chips)
Seat 7: #1Poker Dude ($75.60 in chips)
Seat 8: jardo007 ($14.15 in chips)
Seat 9: darkstar24 ($16.15 in chips)
Ultra Donk: posts small blind $0.10
#1Poker Dude: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BabyHumvee [4c Ks Kh As]
jardo007: folds
darkstar24: folds
BabyHumvee: raises $1 to $1.25
sngldadof4: folds
StaceyP: calls $1.25
real kisska: folds
DogsBeater: raises $21.75 to $23 and is all-in
Ultra Donk: folds
#1Poker Dude: folds
BabyHumvee said, "tempting"
BabyHumvee said, "great hand"
BabyHumvee said, "but not vs AA"
#1Poker Dude said, "do it"
BabyHumvee: folds
#1Poker Dude said, "lol"
StaceyP: calls $21.75
*** FLOP *** [2c Ts 6c]
DogsBeater said, "yes, your a 4 9 j is tempting"
*** TURN *** [2c Ts 6c] 5♣
*** RIVER *** [2c Ts 6c 5c] J♠
*** SHOW DOWN ***
StaceyP: shows [7d Ac 7c 6d] (HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 7,6,5,2,A)
DogsBeater: shows [2d Ad 3h Ah] (HI: a pair of Aces; LO: 6,5,3,2,A)
StaceyP collected $22.65 from pot
DogsBeater collected $22.60 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $47.60 | Rake $2.35
Board [2c Ts 6c 5c Js]
Seat 1: BabyHumvee folded before Flop
Seat 2: sngldadof4 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: StaceyP showed [7d Ac 7c 6d] and won ($22.65) with HI: a flush, Ace high; LO: 7,6,5,2,A
Seat 4: real kisska folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: DogsBeater (button) showed [2d Ad 3h Ah] and won ($22.60) with HI: a pair of Aces; LO: 6,5,3,2,A
Seat 6: Ultra Donk (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: #1Poker Dude (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: jardo007 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: darkstar24 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Click to expand...

imo i think this kind of chatting about the hand is kind of unethical because it's not heads up and there's another player still to act. would be majorly frowned upon by a lot of respected live players and i don't see that it should be any different online (although fwiw i've violated those kinds of poker chat ethics a couple times in the past, trying not to anymore)

That's a good point and I'm glad you mention it because I probably spaced out not realizing someone was left to act. I don't condone this chat either. HU is fine, but not with others to act. However, I won't beat myself up too much over it because generally the all-ins are 90%+ AAxx at this level and everyone knows it, so I'm only stating the obvious.

skoldpadda said:

That's a good point and I'm glad you mention it because I probably spaced out not realizing someone was left to act. I don't condone this chat either. HU is fine, but not with others to act. However, I won't beat myself up too much over it because generally the all-ins are 90%+ AAxx at this level and everyone knows it, so I'm only stating the obvious.

Click to expand...

Although it may be obvious to you, I think it's illegal and pokerstars could penalize you for it. Obviously if you are HU you can say all the stuff you want, and this example isn't that bad because you don't actually have the information. Worse would be if you had said "laying down kings here". But what you did was still illegal and you should probably try to avoid doing it just because pokerstars could penalize you for it.