What's your move?

Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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Seat 1: SB ($16.55)
Seat 2: BB ($14.90)
Seat 3: UTG ($20.80)
Seat 4: ($7.90)
Seat 5: ($48.25)
Seat 6: Button ($35.80)
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Button [Ks] [Kc]
UTG raises to $1.75
Seat 4 folds
Seat 5 folds
Button calls $1.75
SB folds
BB folds
*** FLOP *** [7s][4c][Jc]
UTG bets $4.25
Button calls $4.25
*** TURN *** [7s][4c][Jc][4h]
UTG checks
Button bets $0.80
UTG raises to $14.80, and is all in

You're the Button, What's your move?
 
tenbob

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Nice post FD. But its really tough to answer that based on what we see above. The above hand history is screaming fold, but if he was donking around the table previously, and making them sort of bets all over the place then id call.

Why no re-raise PF ? And why the 80c bet on the turn ? Id be inclined to release the hand here and look for a better spot.
 
Four Dogs

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Aggressive but doesn't show down often. When he does he has the goods.
 
Lo-Dog

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hmm seems he might have flopped trip J's. Saw the check raise coming so I'd say its time to fold.
 
tenbob

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Four Dogs said:
Aggressive but doesn't show down often. When he does he has the goods.

Well easy fold then, as lo-dog mentioned set of Jacks seems likely, boating on the turn. Over-excited check raise here though, fold.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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wtf @ not reraising preflop and betting .80 into a ~$10 pot on the turn.

With typical donks you see AJ/KJ/88-QQ/flush draw often enough here to make calling a push on the flop feasible assuming you've reraised preflop and led the flop.

The way you played it is pretty bizzare though, and only serves to make your decision more difficult.
 
spore

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A raise PF was definitely in order. On the flop with that big of a bet to you, it's a tough decision. 4.25 into a ~3.50 pot is either a bluff or a something you're not going to like. So in this spot, I would have either folded the bet on the flop, or raised if I had a good read on the player and thought he was bluffing.

Furthermore the .80 bet on the turn was pointless, except to throw away your money. Why would you bet .80 after all the action up to this point, if you're not going to call a re-raise. Might be OK if you're sure he's bluffing and you're trying to trap him moving all-in.

But, based on the data here I would think he had JJ in the hole.
 
Four Dogs

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I'm not going to leave you all in suspense for long. I'm just trying to get a feel for what most good players would do given the situation. This is actually a failed bluff attempt. I'm not the pocket kings I'm the mystery hand.
Here's how it really looked. http://www.pokerhand.org/?325292
In retrospect, it looks like at bad move but at the time it looked like an opportunity. If I had known what he was holding I never would have tried it. It shouldn't have made a difference, I was trying to represent the set of 4's, but we all know that big starting hands like KK are hard to lay down. I'm sure I hadn't come across as a complete donk and the bet was big enough to have the desired effect. It was the combination of the preflop call, the .80 spot bet and the 4 on the turn that made up my mind. Honestly, I do alot better when I NEVER bluff. But, sometimes I just want to roll the dice.
I'll take comments now. Chuck? Here's your chance to get even.
 
spore

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"4.25 into a ~3.50 pot is either a bluff or a something you're not going to like."

You probably had a pretty tight image at the table correct? Your opponent was trying to slow-play the pocket Kings (bad idea), and then had no idea where he was at in the hand. Big bets and then a check/raise on the turn from a tight solid player... no way he could think he was still ahead, unless of course he had a read on you and thought you were bluffing.. then he would have called the all-in.

But, it definitely was the perfect situation for you to bluff in.

Okay, now I can breathe easy knowing you weren't the one betting .08 into a ~15 pot, lol.

BTW, was this a straight-up bluff.. ie, your pre-flop raise was the beginning of the bluff? Or did you have something decent and miss the flop?
 
Osmann

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He had A8, so he missed the flop.
You can see the handhistory in the link he provided.
 
ChuckTs

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Four Dogs said:
Chuck? Here's your chance to get even.

:D

Generally with low limits like these, it's pointless to set up a comlicated play like that (which i'm not sure i understand) because the players are just too inobservant to notice.
In terms of the way you played the hand:
Your UTG PF raise indicated high cards or pocket pair, and i'm not sure what this guy was thinking not reraising you, but he must have thought he could set a trap. And it worked (though i would have played his hand WAY more aggressively and probably put an 8 dollar reraise PF here)
Either way i think the check-raise all in turn was a bad move because the last thing he is going to do is put you on a 4...JJ is a possibility, but is pretty much the only possible hand that has him beat aside AA or 77. Also with a JJ or 77 at these limits, you'd probably check. If i'm sitting there with KK, i'm feeling pretty safe right now.
It's always good to experiment and toss your play up, but at the micros its next to impossible to set a complete bluff up like that. One thing that is often said is never to go on a bluff where you have such few outs. (semibluff only!)

good post FD
 
Four Dogs

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Any single pair, concealed or not, is just not that strong by the river. There were in fact many hands I could have had that would have him beat. AA,AJ,A4s,A7s,JJ,77, and J7s are all hands that I might play the way I did. A8o really was the cutoff for me entering the pot from UTG. With only one caller in front of me and flop that was, for the most part, unlikely to have hit him, I threw out a continuation bet expecting to fold hif he bet back at me, which he didn't. I would have checked to the river had that 4 not turned. There was $12 in the pot and it cost him $14 to call. While my table image may not have been tight, it wasn't reckless either.There should have been no reason for any good player to have called my all-in. If you asked him he'd probably say he had a read on me, but those READS are based usually more on wishfull thinking than observation.

So, did I make a mistake? Well, blown bluffs always look bad in retrospect, but in this case, it was a true mistake. I shouldn't have given him credit for thinking the way I do. All the evidence was there to tell me I was being slow played. I should have put him on better than top pair. My bet on the flop was large enough to have chased away the flush draw and many people will often play an overpair the same way they do a set or 2 pair. That $0.80 micro bet was a dead givaway. I have seen that often enough to know that it's the same as a poke with a stick. He wanted to give me another chance to bet. As Chuck said, it's pointless at these limits to try to weave a complicated bluff. I'll save that one for the wsop.
 
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