TPGK vs the PFR

Button ($3.38)
SB ($5.34)
BB ($7.14)
UTG ($5.71)
Hero (MP) ($10.88)
CO ($5.20)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A , Q
BB calls $0.05, UTG bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, 2 folds, SB calls $0.15, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.67) 8 , K , A (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $0.40, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds

Total pot: $1.47 | Rake: $0.07

UTG is 34 / 22 (UTG raise = 18%) with 4.2% 3bet over 1.1k hands (losing 44 bb/100). AF 1.9 (32%). Folds to 3bet = 56%.

Notes:
- 3bets vs PFR and caller with 88 from BB (!)
- set IP checks back flop and bets 3/4 pot on turn

My thinking process:
- AQo > his wide UTG range, but if I 3bet he folds out garbage and comes out PP heavy and with various Broadway hands, especially suited.
- His range obviously contains AK/KK/AA/88 but I am ahead of everything else which is a majority here (that is the point behind flatting preflop).
- It seemed to me that he hesitated a bit before betting (but I dislike relying on timing tells).
- The flop raise is for value and info (if he comes over it I fold).

1. Line check? I am utterly confused about correct way to play these hands and rely on case-by-case evaluation and that breeds mistakes.

With doing this you fold all of his bluffs, I would just call and hope he puts another bet in on the turn. A raise to this villain may be able to bring hands like a10 or aj in, but other then that he is probably just going to fold.

I like the flop raise, get value from worse aces, force SB out. Villain may be spewy but I still don't think he barrels again if he has no A or K.

Don't raise AKx vs. an uncapped range.

I hate just calling since he might barrel me with AK while I call like a fish.

Raising clears it up, even if he calls and donks the turn it shows strength. Most "muddy" line is if he calls and checks turn.

LD1977 said:

I hate just calling since he might barrel me with AK while I call like a fish.

Raising clears it up, even if he calls and donks the turn it shows strength. Most "muddy" line is if he calls and checks turn.

Click to expand...

Raising this flop is the worse play. All you do is fold out all the hands he's bluffing with and get called/shoved on by hands that beat you. There's no value in raising and raising for "info" as you put it; is wrong.

x/c is the absolute best line in this spot. Most people cbet; give up turns. Chances are though he doesn't have AK; so you want to keep in all his bluffs and worse Ax hands and there are worse hands that will double barrel the turn.

You also have to remember, it's 5nl...if he has AT/AJ for example he's probably not going anywhere but you're taking a line where you're going to be folding if he shoves on you, which means you are giving people at 5nl way to much credit as it's common for people to get in worse Ax in this spot.

You also stated he's a 34/22, more than enough for me to be more than happy to x/c even a turn barrel.

Thanks for the input. Whenever I tried the x/c line I got nailed by a better A like a calling station maybe I am influenced too much by it.

This was just played. I remain unconvinced that calling down is best.

UTG is 48 / 9 / 0.8% 3bet over 430 hands. AF 1.5 (22%).

BB ($7.43)
UTG ($4.85)
Hero (UTG+1) ($5)
MP1 ($0.94)
MP2 ($3.05)
MP3 ($4.25)
CO ($4.97)
Button ($1.26)
SB ($8.70)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K , A
UTG bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, MP1 calls $0.15, 6 folds

Flop: ($0.52) A , 10 , 5 (3 players)
UTG bets $0.52, Hero calls $0.52, 1 fold

Turn: ($1.56) 5 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.30, Hero raises to $0.90, UTG calls $0.60

River: ($3.36) Q (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $3.36 | Rake: $0.16

Results below:

Good to see you playing 6max.

But yeah, peel down. He'll bet with way worse because he's super aggro (and AK is rare on that board) so he has AJ and any amount of air and you're good a very comfortable majority of the time (plus you're getting 2.5:1).

Second hand: wtf fold turn. You're just never ever good with any pair when a station bets. Ever.

Ok; if you remain unconvinced calling down is best - lets see what your options are in the AK<AT hand.

Fold,Call,Raise: (Calling seems best here, folding isn't an option and raising makes no sense given villain range of hands he can continue with) Also; Lets ignore the fact he flopped 2 pair as we don't know that yet.

He raises pre, you call (I think you should be 3betting pre btw, we have position on a weak station player); Anyway; he bets. Brilliant for us, lets just call and let him bet worse or bluff again on the turn. We have a disguised TPTK vs a weak player and by raising, all we are going to achieve is to fold his bluffs and possibly all his worse hands which might bet the turn or call a turn bet if he checks to us. Given we flatted AK pre; there are so many worse Ax hands he's betting. In general, AK is being 3bet pre so even if he has AJ/AQ he's going to think it's the best hand and probably bet each street.

I'm assuming you feel you should raise the flop? If you're planning on getting stacks in on the flop, fine..but I don't think it's optimal vs this player. If you plan is to "raise for info" and fold if he shoved, this is going to be really bad. Either way; how is stacking of with AK<AT on a A,T,x board better than calling the flop? Sure we don't know his hand, but as I keep saying, we push out worse hands, bluffs and get shoved/called by better hands and that is the last thing we want to happen.

You then raised the turn which makes like no sense to me at all..If he donk led a a worse pair we want him to stay in the pot. If he donk led a flush draw or 5x, he just got there...we're now turning our hand into a bluff. Given the great price we're getting, we can happily call the turn and evaluate the river.



You also need to stop looking at the short term results; him having two pair here doesn't mean calling his donk bet on the flop is bad..look long term

Aleksei - Not exactly, it was FR table with several players sitting out

You might find it interesting that I have looked up my results vs number of players in HEM:
1) 9 players (39k hands) = -2.53 bb/100
2) 8 players (38k hands) = -3.5
3) 7 players (16k hands) = 1.81
4) 6 players (4k hands) = 13.76
5) 5 players (800 hands) = 11.47

Of course my position is that many players don't even see the sitouts and don't adjust ranges and aggression, while I usually do (probably not enough though).

ramdeebam (what language is this?) - Actually he isn't donk betting, he raised preflop and I flatted

I intellectually understand what you are saying and it makes sense but I am feeling uncomfortable in these situations since it is hard to me to decide when (if) I should fold and in which situations when the opponent keeps barreling.

I got barreled a few times like this by better players (not total stations) and every time I was behind Generally I suck when I don't take initiative unless I am purposefully trapping with near nuts or checking river to induce bluffs.

Turn raise in 2nd hand is a bit silly but I was feeling unhappy with the board and figured his small bet meant he would give it up if raised (wow that was a stupid line of thought, no way he folds anything if he is ahead of me).

Raising because you are uncomfortable playing past the flop is horrible. You might as well go register for donkaments and stack off with A7o here because you called preflop for some reason and you have 12 BBs.

Worrying that you ran into the top of someone's range again isn't a good reason to raise either. That will just get you isolated against that very top of his range and in a bigger pot.

This guy is opening all sorts of Ax/KQ/Qx hands UTG. If you flatted preflop to keep those hands in it makes no sense to try to fold worse hands out now. Your goal is to get value from his whole range. Raising on the flop accomplishes the nut opposite of that.

Lol; yeah +1 to what baudib said. Pretty much what I was trying to say but I ended up over complicating things with an essay of jumbled thoughts as per usual.

Understood. It isn't easy, you know, being a muppet

excuse me for budgin in... but what does 'x/c line' mean?

toomuch22 said:

excuse me for budgin in... but what does 'x/c line' mean?

Click to expand...

Check/call

LD1977 said:

Aleksei - Not exactly, it was FR table with several players sitting out

You might find it interesting that I have looked up my results vs number of players in HEM:
1) 9 players (39k hands) = -2.53 bb/100
2) 8 players (38k hands) = -3.5
3) 7 players (16k hands) = 1.81
4) 6 players (4k hands) = 13.76
5) 5 players (800 hands) = 11.47

Of course my position is that many players don't even see the sitouts and don't adjust ranges and aggression, while I usually do (probably not enough though).

Click to expand...

Same thing happens to me with less players at table, only with 6 vs 5, 4, 3 and 2.

I intellectually understand what you are saying and it makes sense but I am feeling uncomfortable in these situations since it is hard to me to decide when (if) I should fold and in which situations when the opponent keeps barreling.

Click to expand...

Well, that depends on whether he has worse enough when he barrels for you to keep peeling. Against most good opponents in most spots peeling down is profitable with some less-than-premium hands because it's hard to calibrate a bluffing range where you aren't bluffing too much. Generally speaking, with a bottom-of-range premium hand like AQ in the first hand it's also better to call down if you're IP and your opponent goes bet/bet/bet, because he will bet air and sometimes he'll bet slightly worse for value (hoping you're bluffcatching perhaps) but he will fold out all of his air and worse pairs when you raise, unless he thinks you're full of shit.

Against a station, as a general rule don't call down almost ever, but DEFINITELY don't raise the flop with TPTK. If they show aggression they have something.

What do I do against unknown?

LD1977 said:

What do I do against unknown?

Click to expand...

If he's betting like 2/3 or less and I have a strong middle hand I peel down for info. I'm getting like 2.5:1 or better so I don't have to be good often and I wanna know what he's doing that with.

It's tough to get into a calldown spot with a COMPLETE unknown though -- usually you've seen them play at least an orbit, and you have some limited amount of stats to start making assumptions from.

Hero (MP1) ($5)
MP2 ($3.37)
CO ($3.32)
Button ($4.49)
SB ($2.59)
BB ($3.70)
UTG ($4.80)
UTG+1 ($5)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A , Q
1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.16, Hero calls $0.16, 5 folds

Flop: ($0.39) 6 , Q , 4 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.39, Hero calls $0.39

Turn: ($1.17) 10 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.96, Hero calls $0.96

River: ($3.09) 2 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $1.62, Hero calls $1.62

Total pot: $6.33 | Rake: $0.31

UTG+1 is unknown, 20/16 over 20 hands.

Results below:

I think you played the hand fine.

The only problem is; when we're trying to assign a range to villain given he's unknown, and his stats don't look spewy what do we really beat other than a bluff in this spot? By the turn; it's clear he has Qx or better. The only hands we beat though are KQ maybe some QJ's and chopping with AQ.

All in, all I think it's fine though. His river sizing is a good enough price imo to make the call. I'd find it hard to find a fold tbh.


Also; your note in the spoiler "I literally NEVER win with this line" < < You need to stop thinking the x/c line is bad. As I say, I think you played AQ fine here. There is no other line you can really take. You could fold given he's fired 3 barrels; but like I say I think that's going to be difficult given how dry the board is. Also; had you raised the flop; he's getting it in anyway; so you would of lost more with a different line and I doubt he's ever folding KK if you decided to do anything fancy. Chalk it up as just a bit of a cooler and variance you can't win every pot

Yeah I know, I guess I am just unlucky with this exact line he is probably unhappy about the FD arriving but I didn't see him folding to a raise after firing 3 barrels so I decided to just call.