Top set extracting

Flop top set and villain is playing. How do I best bet this to stack him?

PokerStars Game #13091006955: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2007/11/07 - 03:39:32 (ET)
Table 'Parvulesco' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: tuicreek ($23.80 in chips)
Seat 3: Hero ($44.45 in chips)
Seat 4: dylan0003 ($48.10 in chips)
Seat 5: hodde23 ($29.25 in chips)
Seat 6: NicolB ($80.10 in chips)
Seat 7: HomerJay12 ($24.50 in chips)
Seat 8: roulroul ($35.60 in chips)
Seat 9: Pokamon06 ($47.75 in chips)
Bluetones: posts small blind $0.25
dylan0003: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Ah Ac]
hodde23: folds
NicolB: folds
HomerJay12: folds
roulroul: folds
Pokamon06: folds
tuicreek: folds
Hero: raises $1.50 to $2
dylan0003: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [4h Ad Qd]
Chaos-Ralle leaves the table
Hero: bets $2.50
dylan0003: calls $2.50
*** TURN *** [4h Ad Qd] [7h]
Hero: bets $7
dylan0003: raises $8 to $15
Hero?

He's put $19.50, you're another $25 away from doubling up. I'm having trouble putting him on a hand with that minraise he made on the turn. A FD wouldn't do it, not even if it were a double draw with 65s; if anything that hand would shove to try to take it down. It's gotta be at least 2 pair I guess, the ideal would be a set of 7's, in which case you'd get his stack no matter how you play it, but it's not likely, it seems more like 2 pair although you have 2 aces so it's hard to put him on aces up. Maybe something like Q7? You think this player would call the raise to $2 PF with Q7?

The problem is that it's better to get more in now because if a diamond or a heart come on the river you're still ahead but it might kill the action. In the same time if it's some weird 2 pair and you put in a big raise now he might think he's beat and he folds. I think the best is another $8 minraise, sort of an "offer he can't refuse" , just to make sure you don't lose him. You can then shove the remaining $17 on the river hoping it's not a diamond or heart, in which case he might just call it. If the board flushes you'll probably lose him but I just don't think shoving the turn is the best idea because even 2 pair, unless it's top 2, might fold; and if it is top 2 I'd expect him to shove your re-minraise on the turn being that this is SB/BB battle, so again it's not a problem to get value vs such a hand. It's more difficult against those weird 2 pairs because a good player could fold if you play this aggressively. He could think you're on a FD and call it, but it depends what kind of player he is, what he has and how you've played so far. If by any chance you've been LAG during this session then perhaps shoving is the best move.

I like joe's reasoning. A set of 7s looks possible, calling your flop bet in case you were c-betting with air, or maybe AQ that waited one street to see if you were committed, or maybe even A7s.

In any event, his raise is some attempt to push you off, I think, or, with 77 an attempt to get you to build his pot. I'm starting to use min or undersized raises more and more myself, but that's because it works at the levels of competition that I'm playing at.

I might throw in another $12, see if he'll shove, or embarass him by making him fold to the small raise if he's doing this with air, or not embarass him if he reads what you're doing. Joe suggests $8 which is pretty much the same.

Thanks guys.

I was thinking 2 pair/smaller set at the time and so I pushed the turn. He folded.

I guess the problem I was thinking over was this: I bet, he re-raises and I bet/push. This line pretty much turns my hand face up. Am I better off flat calling and value betting the river or making a smaller re-raise on the turn to commit Villain to the pot? Or is it much of a muchness and pushing was just the worst option?

What's the most +EV move I can make?

For what it's worth a smaller set felts here as do most two pair hands.

shove all day. he's not folding often. board is way drawy, and you're OOP so extracting max on river is difficult. tiny re-raise will scare the hell out of him, possibly give a good draw correct odds (in position), and really turn your hand face up. just calling sucks for all the aforementioned reasons except replace scaring him/turning your hand face up with losing value and letting any draw get there. whereas a shove could be a big draw or look like a typical player at this limit who thinks AK is the nuts here

If it were me, I would have checked the turn, and let him take over the betting control. If he was willing to call, he would have been eagre to take control thinking he could out play you, ideal situation. Then when he pops it, you could have hymmed and hawwed and called.

As it is, you have created in his mind either a single pair, or a complete steal attempt, so you might as well pop it big, if he has something, hes gonna call regardless.

combuboom said:

shove all day. he's not folding often. board is way drawy, and you're OOP so extracting max on river is difficult. tiny re-raise will scare the hell out of him, possibly give a good draw correct odds (in position), and really turn your hand face up. just calling sucks for all the aforementioned reasons except replace scaring him/turning your hand face up with losing value and letting any draw get there. whereas a shove could be a big draw or look like a typical player at this limit who thinks AK is the nuts here

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I can agree with part of this, but not all. The board being drawy shouldn't concern us at all. If he's on draw he wouldn't call the flop and minraise the turn. His line is not one that a draw would take, so if we're shoving because of the draws, then we're forgetting to get value out of our hand and we're making a huge mistake.

If instead we're shoving to hopefully represent a big draw and get called, then it sounds better. But I don't think this works most times, because all throughout the hand Schatz has shown strength, PF, flop and turn. A shove now hardly resembles a draw, it's more like saying "I have it", and I can see some weird 2 pair folding to it if it's a good player. Of course one can argue that the minraise has the same effect, and it's true for the most part, but I think it gets called more often than the shove when we consider how this hand went from the start.

The biggest factors that should determine which approach is best are Schatze's image and how this villain has played so far. Schatze's image has to be a bit loose if we're going to shove and try to sell the "big draw" or "TPTK" line, or else we get a fold every time. All this assuming villain does have some kind of hand. This is where his image has a role. If he's the kind who we think might be trying to make a play at us, then just run the clock down a bit, call and give him a chance to bluff the river.

Anything except worrying too much about draws because I just can't see him having one.

i don't think it's likely he has a draw, just said "possibly". i agree i wouldn't put him on it. i think the drawy aspect is more important other ways, one of which you mentioned. and it's easy for a player to shove in hero's spot with a big draw, i see it a lot. the thing is, once you make a tiny reraise, you tell your opponent flatly that you do not have a draw (or bluff) like ever. shove and let him put you on one or the other if he so chooses

putting the idea of a draw aside, the minraise in this spot generally means he either has a hand he'll go all the way with, or he's making a cheap play. if you shove and he folds, he probably had very little to begin with. what you might accomplish by reraising tiny, besides making your hand more obvious, is to screw yourself out of value when some river card scares him and you're out of position to extract max

What they said.

I shove here all day as well. Im not overly concerned about the draws on the board, villians line is attempting to get as much into the pot as possible. We "could" call and check the river, but its risky, I like shoving here.

I think the worst thing regarding the draws here is that if one of them fills up on the river it may kill your action, ie it may scare villain's 2 pair or whatever. It's not very often that a FD will smooth call the flop and raise the turn unimproved; I'm pretty sure villain is on two pair or lower set a lot of the time here, and occasionally is bluffing.

I agree with shoving.

Thanks alot for the input guys. Some good stuff to think about here.

Schatzdog said:

Thanks alot for the input guys. Some good stuff to think about here.

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Rest of the HH ?

he said somewhere above that he shoved and the other guy folded

Yeah I pushed and he folded after thinking for a bit.

I don't think you can extract more value out of this hand since he didn't give you credit for a big hand until you pushed on the turn after he minraised you. This is BB floating/trying to keep you honest, but bluffind into the cold hard nuts a lot of the times here. That, or it is another pp that tried to tarp you by smooth calling (88, 99, TT, JJ) but that realize it is beat.

I don't think this is a flush/straight draw more than 5% of the time. I like the fact that you lead into him both on the flop and the turn, pot was never going to get bigger than this anyway if you checked.