top 2 pair vs checkraise

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james222

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Table 'Hippo IV' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: jimbo7777 ($52.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Narcis13 ($47.70 in chips)
Seat 3: V. Valmont ($53.10 in chips)
Seat 4: TheDarkJoker ($48.15 in chips)
Seat 5: Bob_124 ($81.50 in chips)
Seat 6: astragale ($53.25 in chips)
Seat 7: dioniss ($57.60 in chips)
Seat 9: PAC|V|AN ($31.90 in chips)
Bob_124: posts small blind $0.25
astragale: posts big blind $0.50
mehike: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jimbo7777 [Jd Ac]
dioniss: calls $0.50
PAC|V|AN: calls $0.50
jimbo7777: calls $0.50
Narcis13: folds
V. Valmont: raises $1.50 to $2
TheDarkJoker: folds
Bob_124: folds
astragale: folds
dioniss: calls $1.50
PAC|V|AN: folds
jimbo7777: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [5d Ad Jc]
dioniss: checks
jimbo7777: bets $4
V. Valmont: folds
dioniss: raises $9 to $13
what are my options? which option is the best? and whats his range here?
 
J

joeeagles

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You're going to have to shove this James no matter what reads you have on this player, since you lose here only to a set. Another option may be to slowplay this if you like, for example just smooth calling his check/raise here and then shoving his turn bet.

You can't give this up just because you're afraid of him having a set. If he does so be it, the cards set you up big time with top 2 pair and you are supposed to lose alot of chips when this happens. Pot right now is $24.25, there is no way you fold this.
 
Stick66

Stick66

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The limp-overcall PF is bad for us. I put a solid player on a set, but a donkey could have just TPTK. Very hard to figure his range without reads. Is another $9 worth it for another card? I'm not sure.
 
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joeeagles

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I kind of knew that this thread was going to have interesting replies. So now we are wondering if his hand is worth another $9? Wow, if you think about folding this because of a check/raise, then NLHE is not for you. It is amazing the amount of times I see people here putting their opponents on sets.

When you flop such a strong hand, your goal is to find a way to make villain put the rest of his chips in the pot, not worrying that he might have a set. NLHE is NOT a game of the nuts like omaha. Top 2 pair on the flop is a VERY strong hand in holdem. Of course there is a chance villain has a set, but the chances are much much higher that he has something else and you can't worry about a set. If he has it so be it. Then you're supposed to lose your stack.

I actually think he does have a set, why else post this hand? But that doesn't mean that if James shoved on the flop or turn he made a mistake. He did the right thing and it just isn't his day.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Folding here is sooo weaktight...

I asked about reads because if we're facing a LAG, we can possibly smooth call and raise the turn (he's probably not going to call a push from us with a bare ace). Actually I prefer just pushing since a LAG will be doing this with a flush draw sometimes, and letting him see a turn without reraising would be disaster.

Just push.
 
alexanderwoo1

alexanderwoo1

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You got two options you either would push all-in and hope he has something like A-10 around or you can fold if you think he has a set of fives in this position.
 
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james222

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pokerstars Game #9746316341: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2007/05/04 - 14:56:02 (ET)
Table 'Hippo IV' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: jimbo7777 ($52.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Narcis13 ($47.70 in chips)
Seat 3: V. Valmont ($53.10 in chips)
Seat 4: TheDarkJoker ($48.15 in chips)
Seat 5: Bob_124 ($81.50 in chips)
Seat 6: astragale ($53.25 in chips)
Seat 7: dioniss ($57.60 in chips)
Seat 9: PAC|V|AN ($31.90 in chips)
Bob_124: posts small blind $0.25
astragale: posts big blind $0.50
mehike: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jimbo7777 [Jd Ac]
dioniss: calls $0.50
PAC|V|AN: calls $0.50
jimbo7777: calls $0.50
Narcis13: folds
V. Valmont: raises $1.50 to $2
TheDarkJoker: folds
Bob_124: folds
astragale: folds
dioniss: calls $1.50
PAC|V|AN: folds
jimbo7777: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [5d Ad Jc]
dioniss: checks
jimbo7777: bets $4
V. Valmont: folds
dioniss: raises $9 to $13
jimbo7777: raises $14 to $27
dioniss: raises $28.60 to $55.60 and is all-in
jimbo7777: calls $23.50 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [5d Ad Jc] [4c]
*** RIVER *** [5d Ad Jc 4c] [7d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dioniss: shows [5h 5s] (three of a kind, Fives)
jimbo7777: mucks hand
dioniss collected $105.25 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $108.25 | Rake $3
Board [5d Ad Jc 4c 7d]
Seat 1: jimbo7777 mucked [Jd Ac]
Seat 2: Narcis13 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: V. Valmont folded on the Flop
Seat 4: TheDarkJoker (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Bob_124 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: astragale (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: dioniss showed [5h 5s] and won ($105.25) with three of a kind, Fives
Seat 9: PAC|V|AN folded before Flop
i felt 55 was the most likely hand the way it was played but also felt that there were enough other possibilities to want to get all my money in here. I was pretty much thinking along the same lines as what joe and chuck said and liked what you had to say.

Now im thinking is it more profitable in the long run to call, raise turn in this spot? Most hands im beating will probably fold to another reraise. If he has a flush draw hes already shown that hes willing to put all his money in with it. So if i just call he may bet on the turn with a weaker A or 2 pair and if hes bluffing he might fire again.
what do you guys think?
 
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joeeagles

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Ahhhh, he did have a set. I figured that's why you posted the hand.

As to your question its pretty much what Chuck said, it depends on your opponent, if he's LAG you're better off shoving right away. The only thing I can add is that it also depends on how your opponents percieve you, the table image that you've given. Generally you want to get as much as you can in there as fast as you can. If you've been mostly tight then perhaps a call on the flop and then a shove on his turn bet is the way to go, since he almost certainly will fire on the turn no matter what he has because pot is big.

Anyway, even if you lost you did the right thing putting all your money in there, you just got very unlucky, as I said before it wasn't your day. Don't question your play here, you didn't make a mistake.
 
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DukeDrew

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Agree with Joe. To be honest, I was expecting you to post he had KdQd. He'd have 15 outs on the flop, which is ~60% (and he would have hit with the 7d).
 
A

alan1983

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Ive lost a few of those hands too, but i have to ask something.

I make that call maybe everytime.

But if we say set over set is just unlucky, and top two pairs vs set is same, and maybe overpair vs set too, when dyou fold a good hand! lol.

Or is it because its cash games, you take the chance everytime?

I mean sometimes your read and logic and instinct all tell you he has your monster beat, but we still make the call?
 
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