Test your Small Stakes No Limit Hold 'Em Part 4

Hero's Action?

  • Check and call a pot sized bet

    Votes: 4 13.8%
  • Check and call a 1/2 pot bet

    Votes: 7 24.1%
  • Bet $35

    Votes: 16 55.2%
  • Bet $62

    Votes: 2 6.9%

  • Total voters
    29
dbitel

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SB ($77)
Hero ($190)
MP1 ($164)
MP2 ($11)
CO ($240)
Button ($38)


Preflop: Hero is BB with T
club.gif
T
heart.gif
. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
3 folds, MP1 calls $1, MP2 calls $1, 1 fold, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: :ac4: :10d4: :4c4: ($6, 6 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $6, MP1 and CO call, all else fold.


Turn: :7s4: ($24, 3 players)
Hero Bets $21, MP1 calls, CO folds.


River: :jc4: ($66, 2 players)
Hero.....?
 
t1riel

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There's a card you didn't want to see. Check and see what the player does, if it's a half pot size bet, you have to call now. He might have A, K and you've gone too far to quit now. A pot sized bet I probably would fold.
 
shinedown.45

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bet the pot, if he had A-A in hand and hit his set I could see him raise your bet on the turn as it would seem your commited with the size of your bet.
I believe the best he has in his hand is A-K or possibly 4-4 which is not unlikely since you didn't raise pre-flop and let mediocre hands in the hand, I believe your ahead here.
But this is just my style of play.
 
JimboJim

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I think he has an Ace with middle kicker. I'm nervous at this point and he probably is too. If you check he'll probably think that the flush scared you and will act on it. If you bet a million things will be going through his head.
 
X

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This is the most player dependent play i can think of, If he is bad then my answer is wrong, if he is good he may have a hand like A 10 or AK and will pay you off, in which case checking is the wrong move
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Okay, this is the first decision in this hand I've really had to think about. If I think villain is bad enough to chase his flush/gutshot/whatever here I check-call (probably somewhere between a 1/2 pot and pot-sized bet:p).

In fact, I think it's best if we check-call anyway. We may induce a bluff, which will perhaps make up for those occasions we miss value from an Ax that is checking behind but calling if we bet the river.

Also, the fact that I would really, really hate life if I lead the river and get raised here really makes me want to check-call.

(Voted check-call PSB)

Edit: This is horribly weak and certainly the 'wrong' answer though.
 
Last edited:
zebranky

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bet 1/2 pot

you have to bet here. Given the turn bet you made, its highly unlikely that any flush or straight draws would stay in, so you're still ahead of anything except JJ (which should have folded the turn) and AA (which should have raised PF and the flop). Assuming your opponent was a rational player, you've got to have the best hand. A bigger bet than 1/2 pot will scare off other hands, but a two pair or AK hand may still call you for the 1/2 pot.
 
blankoblanco

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Well crap. We bet $21... he shouldn't exactly have called with a flush draw, right? If he's not a garbage player, isn't A-something or 2 pair his most likely holding? I might freak out and check here, but given how he's played the hand, a bet seems to be in order. Uh, I reluctantly vote to bet $35, but I really don't know. My lack of cash game experience shows in situations like this.
 
mrsnake3695

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A single pair of aces will prob call 35 but fold to 62 and check behind to a check, so if you put him on that 35 is a good bet. If he call 21 on the turn with a flush draw then I'm just going to have to pay him off if he reraises since ace-10 or ace-jack might also reraise. I don't see him having a set without reraising at some point so our best case is he has 2 pair. Our worst case is the flush obviously which means we lost the hand by not raising pre-flop in the first place (by the way I said raise pre-flop, lol). I bet 35 and call any reraise, although I suspect dbitel is going to give villan a flush.
 
PokerPete

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I'd bet the $35...I now know the guy DID'NT have KcJc..about the ONLY flush draw I could see the guy hanging with...I want the AK AT hand to pay...and if he's got AQ he's sweating it out right now...but just MIGHT call....BTW: At this point I've already typed "nice catch" into the chat bar but didn't hit send yet....just in case...if he re-raises, I gonna have to call and pay it off
 
Shoestringx

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I voted for check and call a 1/2 pot sized bet, but in retrospect I'm not sure if leading out with a $35 bet is the correct move. I really think that his is kinda a toss up situation. It depends on how you percieve MP1 to be playing, but as there are no reads, I think I would still go with a check and call 1/2 pot sized bet.
 
joosebuck

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check. 89c could have been calling down and checking lets us keep the pot low. it also may induce a bet from a weak ace or an ace with 2 pair.
 
Vegas Cat

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Bet to find where you stand

If Hero checks, MP1 has been calling all the way, MP1 may think Hero had a pair of aces and is now wary of the flush, MP1 would probably bet out big and Hero would have no way of knowing if MP1 really had the flush. MP1 could have been calling all the way because he had a pair of aces or two pair.

If Hero bets too much, MP1 maybe did have the flush, will go over the top on Hero or call and Hero will lose big.

Hero should bet just enough that if MP1 was also wary of the flush but did have something, he'd just call, if MP1 had nothing and thought Hero might have the flush, then he'd fold because there was no sense in him putting anymore money in, and if he did have the flush, he'd either call or come over the top, in which case Hero could fold with the least amount of loss from having to bet.

Hero should bet about 1/2 the pot.

Cheers,
Vegas Cat
 
Debi

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I would bet $35 - don't want to check, he will bet strong no matter what he has if I do.
 
F Paulsson

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Let's put him on a range. He's unknown, so let's also avoid giving him too much credit for being good.

Hands that make any kind of sense at all:
* Any flush draw
* JJ+
* A-x

Would he play QQ this way? Possibly. A-2? Some bad players will not fold top pair. Flush draw? Some just can't lay down flush draws. It's not impossible. AA seems unlikely since he ought to have raised somewhere earlier in the hand. 4-4 unlikely for the same reason.

I don't think he will fold any hand in the range above that he's gone to the river with. I think he will raise with a flush, and I think I could make that laydown if he does.

I think he will fear a flush and a trap from me, so he will not be betting A-T, A-4 or even A-J here all the time. Checking to induce a bet is not helpful because he won't bet weaker hands; I do believe he will call with them though.

I bet half the pot. It's enough that I can get away from it if he pushes. If we bet the pot, I'm not sure I could fold to a push as we'd be faced with a $250 pot and $74 to call, and this from a player we know absolutely nothing about.
 
ChuckTs

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Let's put him on a range. He's unknown, so let's also avoid giving him too much credit for being good.

Hands that make any kind of sense at all:
* Any flush draw
* JJ+
* A-x

Does KK-JJ really play the hand this way?
My honest opinion is that he's got to be either holding on to an ace, or have a pretty big draw (flush + gutshot at least w/KQc) to have called that big of a turn bet.
 
F Paulsson

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KK doesn't make much sense if we know he's a sensible player. Against an unknown, I wouldn't completely disregard it as an alternative, however unlikely it may be. Even very unlikely holdings add up if there are enough of them - in this hand there are very few likely holdings but a whole slew of weird ones.

I agree that his most likely holding is one of the hands that you list, but I think it's a big mistake to think that he'll never have a hand like KK or even just K-T. Against a player we know or a player we trust, it's different, but unknowns are... Weird. :)
 
bubbasbestbabe

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I bet the pot. There are no reads on the table. You have to bet your hand for the most value. Half pot screams of a good hand. Pot bet represents As. If he also has As he will call. If he has the flush he would most likely raise. But still, are you going to lay it down?
 
Lo-Dog

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I don't see the point in checking and then calling a half or full pot sized bet. If we are prepared to do that, better to lead out with a half pot bet ourselves, at least we have some fold equity this way.
 
ChuckTs

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I don't see the point in checking and then calling a half or full pot sized bet. If we are prepared to do that, better to lead out with a half pot bet ourselves, at least we have some fold equity this way.

Interesting point but I gotta disagree. What do we want fold equity for? Only hand that beats us, right? I mean we want any worse hand to call, and don't want any stronger hand to fold if possible. A straight probably smooth-calls a pretty large bet, and a small flush definitely calls, or most probably raises (if he's calling such big bets chasing it to the river) and we've lost money. We don't want 44, two pair, any ace, or other random hand folding either.

If we check, we can maybe induce a bet from one of the above mentioned hands and call if the price is right, aswell as keep the pot small as there are several hands that can now beat you.

Maybe its just me but why the hell are we betting into a guy that's played this exactly like a flush draw and now has hit if he is holding two clubs??
 
Lo-Dog

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Interesting point but I gotta disagree. What do we want fold equity for? Only hand that beats us, right? I mean we want any worse hand to call, and don't want any stronger hand to fold if possible. A straight probably smooth-calls a pretty large bet, and a small flush definitely calls, or most probably raises (if he's calling such big bets chasing it to the river) and we've lost money. We don't want 44, two pair, any ace, or other random hand folding either.

If we check, we can maybe induce a bet from one of the above mentioned hands and call if the price is right, aswell as keep the pot small as there are several hands that can now beat you.

Maybe its just me but why the hell are we betting into a guy that's played this exactly like a flush draw and now has hit if he is holding two clubs??

Interesting logic but I ..... agree?:eek: maybe:D

You're right that there is not much out there (better hands) that is going to fold to our bet. Stupid response really.

However I still see value in betting to see if we can get a lesser hand to call. 2 pair or even trips will likely check behind.

However, however, I'm starting to like the check call as well.

This is what I get for trying to move my focus from cash to tourney play.:D
 
ChuckTs

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Don't worry Logan I'm lost too :D I honestly don't know what to do here.

I'd like to see a real HA of this broken down to numbers and percents based on what villain could be holding, but by just generalizing I'd say this is a check-call for me anyways.

OK what hands are possible for villain:
1)AK-AT
2)44
3)flush draw and/or straight draw (though less likely to draw just with KQ)

tbh I really don't see KK-JJ limping preflop, then calling down to the river here, or at least not frequently enough for it to be a significant possibility (at least IMO).

If we bet:
1) probably calls; especially AJ or AT (good)
2) probably calls (good)
3) flush raises (bad)

...but the probability percent for each holding is probably not

33%
33% and
33%,

it's probably more like

%40
%10 and
%50

(rough)

......well by my estimations, it's a tossup then :/

Well that did no help....


so any real HA gurus wanna help out here and explain the best course of action via EV etc ?
 
zebranky

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I'm not an EV expert, but I think I posted in the next thread what the likely hands who hold on till the river are - the turn isn't likely to help any of the hands that would call the flop, so just look at who would limp PF and call the flop bet.

the behinders:
AT, AQ, AK - possible for them to call down the flop/turn, so they'll still probably call the river if Hero doesn't overbet.
AJ - yeah, they'll call down, and probably raise a bet on the river, figuring they're ahead with top 2 pair
44 - yeah, baby set is thinking like us (but behind), he'll at least call a river bet, and maybe raise it.
QQ, KK - possible, but not likely (call the flop/river with an A out there and 6 people playing? - not likely), especially with the PF limp.
AA- no way with the PF.

and the 4 possible better hands -
JJ (should fold on the flop or turn)
non nut-flush (called an over 1/2 pot bet on the turn - lousy odds for them to call)
straight draw (calling the turn bet for a gutshot? I doubt it)
nut flush - most possible better hand. But if you had KcQc, wouldn't you raise on the flop? I would, if only to block a turn bet.

I still say the only logical hands for the opponent to have are AT-AK or 44 - all of which are behind, so bet this one, because most of those hands will still call.
 
ChuckTs

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non nut-flush (called an over 1/2 pot bet on the turn - lousy odds for them to call)

True he called with bad pot odds but of course this is NLHE and we have to factor in implied odds. We've shown considerable strength leading for near pot-sized bets the whole hand into a multiway pot, and he could very well think he could get stacked if he does hit a flush...
 
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