Sucker play or not?

winneronline

winneronline

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Total posts
62
Chips
0
So, its in Titan. 0.50/1 blinds. Player raises preflop to $4. I call.
I d like to comment my after flop play. Not the fact that
I limped in with 3d4d. Anyway, he had AA.
So, the flop : 9d 4s 10d
I bet 10.
Ha raises to 40.
I raise to 70 to make him leave.
And he goes all - in with 150.
It was a turbo table ( so I did not have much time to think )
I figured out that the best move is to call with so many outs.

Turn : 2 . River : K . NOT giving me either a flush or 2 pairs.

Do I suck ??? :)

Or it was right to move all in?
 
ychennay

ychennay

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jan 24, 2007
Total posts
21
Chips
0
I don't think it was that bad a play considering you had so many outs and the fact that you were playing at a turbo table, you had higher than a 1/3 chance of making the best hand(with either 2 pair, three of a kind, or a flush), and although it depends on the size of the pot, it seems like the right decision mathematically. I probably would have done it as well...

I wouldn't have, however, called such a big raise with 3-4 suited unless I had a read on his betting tendencies or style(which maybe you did, in which case would justify your calling).
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Total posts
12,422
Chips
0
I bet 10.
Ha raises to 40.
I raise to 70 to make him leave.

Umm, this isn't going to work. Giving him huge pot odds to call isn't going to "make him leave". Calling the raise is okay, shoving is okay, but the minraise is just pointless.

...and fold preflop, of course, but I'm sure you know that. ;)
 
D

Dingodaddy23

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 20, 2006
Total posts
497
Chips
0
I think you should have shoved over his flop raise. If you're going to play hands like 3/4 suited, you have to be willing to make moves on flops like this, and you're not a huge dog to any hand really. the min-reraise is just horrible, but you had to call his push after getting there like that.
 
zebranky

zebranky

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Total posts
346
Chips
0
I limped in with 3d4d. Anyway, he had AA.
So, the flop : 9d 4s 10d
I bet 10.
Ha raises to 40.
I raise to 70 to make him leave.
And he goes all - in with 150.
It was a turbo table ( so I did not have much time to think )
I figured out that the best move is to call with so many outs.

Turn : 2 . River : K . NOT giving me either a flush or 2 pairs.

Do I suck ??? :)

Or it was right to move all in?

Sorry, but you suck. Not for calling the all-in necessarily, but for not folding to his first raise on the flop, or at most flat-calling it.
You re-raised with 3rd pair and a low FD - this is not a hand you want to get into a raising match with. You lose most times.
Think about what he could be holding that make him want to raise the flop instead of just calling your bet (other than AA). AK/AQ/AJ diamonds suits this, and beats your flush draw. Any pair over the board. Top two pair or trips. Heck, there's now a whole host of hands to beat you. Two pair or trips are your only really good chance, and what are your odds of hitting 5 outs?

Having said that, once you've re-raised and he pushes all in, you're pretty much committed by the pot odds. His push would usually mean (to me) that he doesn't have 2 diamonds.
Still, I think you should be check/calling this flop, and seeing another card before committing.
 
stormswa

stormswa

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 31, 2006
Total posts
3,545
Chips
0
yea

I agree with what everyone has said, now I'm a Lag player with the ability to change styles during a game but even I would not play this. I would not run this hand with the chip stacks, he didnt have enough to make it worth it and I think it was Heads up right?

You dont seem strong enough to play a Lag style? Im just assuming you are not because you are asking if you played this hand correct or not. If im wrong then I apologize, being a new player you should be playing a total TAG type of play until you have the skills to switch it up.
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

I'm confused
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Total posts
1,597
Chips
0
You got really good advice here already. I hope you listen, especially about the reraise after the flop (that sent chills down my spine), and being able to properly play hands like 3 4 suited. They can be played but carefully, the goal with hands like these is to stack another player not get stacked yourself which is why the post flop reraise is a bad play. Villan told you he had you beat right now and that he had no intention of going anywhere, so you aren't going to bluff him off this pot I don't think, and considering his holding we now know why. If you are going to play LAG and call raises with these kinds of hands you also need to know when to get away from them.
 
winneronline

winneronline

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Total posts
62
Chips
0
Ok. Thanks for the replies. Oh, It was not heads up. it was shorthanded. Something I did not mention. I was 100% sure on the flop that this guy had the A's. After studying his play for 3 hours I was definetely sure about this. That's why I left out the possibility of him having a flush with 2 high cards in his hands. So, I now think that the major mistake was my flop reraise... I should have called that one and see another card without risking my bankroll. Thanks guys for your comments. Any more comments of course are appreciated.

Edit : Also, after my really tight play that night I knew that he had me somewhere in K's or Q's. Definetely the reraise sucked.. :)
 
zebranky

zebranky

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Total posts
346
Chips
0
wow, um....

Ok. Thanks for the replies. Oh, It was not heads up. it was shorthanded. Something I did not mention. I was 100% sure on the flop that this guy had the A's. After studying his play for 3 hours I was definetely sure about this. That's why I left out the possibility of him having a flush with 2 high cards in his hands. So, I now think that the major mistake was my flop reraise... I should have called that one and see another card without risking my bankroll. Thanks guys for your comments. Any more comments of course are appreciated.

Edit : Also, after my really tight play that night I knew that he had me somewhere in K's or Q's. Definetely the reraise sucked.. :)

wait - if you knew he had the A's, why even bet this flop? It's going to be the rare player who can fold AA without an obvious flush/straight/trips on the board.
 
stormswa

stormswa

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 31, 2006
Total posts
3,545
Chips
0
lesson 1

Ok. Thanks for the replies. Oh, It was not heads up. it was shorthanded. Something I did not mention. I was 100% sure on the flop that this guy had the A's. After studying his play for 3 hours I was definetely sure about this. That's why I left out the possibility of him having a flush with 2 high cards in his hands. So, I now think that the major mistake was my flop reraise... I should have called that one and see another card without risking my bankroll. Thanks guys for your comments. Any more comments of course are appreciated.

Edit : Also, after my really tight play that night I knew that he had me somewhere in K's or Q's. Definetely the reraise sucked.. :)


ok time for lesson here,

when we say it was heads up we mean the hand was heads up not the table.


when you are playing a LAG style game, position is very important and so is number of people in the pot. Alot factors into playing a LAG style game. When you play LAG style you are trying to represent something, If he is holding what you are trying to represent then it kinda defeats the purpose. So if you knew he had AA what were you trying to represent?
 
D

Dingodaddy23

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 20, 2006
Total posts
497
Chips
0
wait - if you knew he had the A's, why even bet this flop? It's going to be the rare player who can fold AA without an obvious flush/straight/trips on the board.

you're 50/50 against aces, coupled with the times you can push him off the best hand, it's gotta be +EV. although, we can't really give you a thorough analyzation without knowing stack sizes or reads on the opponet.
 
stormswa

stormswa

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 31, 2006
Total posts
3,545
Chips
0
no

you're 50/50 against aces, coupled with the times you can push him off the best hand, it's gotta be +EV. although, we can't really give you a thorough analyzation without knowing stack sizes or reads on the opponet.


even though its 50/50 no one...I mean no one is laying down AA on this board on flop....NO ONE. especially with his chip stack, wait nm NO ONE is laying down AA here.


again LAG style stands for loose-aggressive , not loose calling station that is what they call weak. It was not a good spot to run this hand, that is bottom line, you got yourself in bad spot and that is why this happened.


if i were holding AA here the only hands that id be worried about are TT, of course his 3x PF raise is also real weak, I would of played it same way as you but I would of raised with 3d4d and let it go if he re-raised, if he just called I would of bet out this flop and folded to the $40. I would of been sure he had the hand I was representing. Again playing LAG style you usually dont want to go to showdown with you low suited connectors, you want to represent something on the board and make them fold, it was obvious by his raise he wasnt going anywhere.

I love playing LAG style but you have to be strong enough to let go of those draws, you also get paid off alot when you actually hit a hand.
 
Last edited:
stormswa

stormswa

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 31, 2006
Total posts
3,545
Chips
0
story time

ok here is my story.

was playing a 1/2 live game and had some cruddy hand like T-5 of hearts or something. and flop came down giving me flush, I called a small bet in like a 5 way pot, and turn gave me the straight draw. I bet it out and got called by 2 I think, river blanked and I put pretty big bet in. Everyone folded and I showed my ten high.

I did this so I could give the impression that I was crazy type and they didn't realize I was actually playing pretty solid. Soon after that I got 77 and flop came 7Ax and I got someone to put all his money in on flop with AK. I most likley wouldn't of gotten this call if I didn't show that bluff, thats the beauty of playing LAG you get paid off big but have to know when to lay the hands down and when is the right time to bluff or bet. If you don't have those skills yet stick to TAG.
 
A

alan1983

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Total posts
641
Chips
0
Well technically, you had the 2 4s, 3 threes, and 9 diamonds as outs.

Which makes 14 outs, which make you a 51% favourite to win the hand :D

Thats for postflop.

As for preflop, i think you need to have a lot of experience to be able to handle 34 and hands like that postflop, so i wouldnt call big raises preflop with them. Limping in with it is fine though
 
stormswa

stormswa

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 31, 2006
Total posts
3,545
Chips
0
Well technically, you had the 2 4s, 3 threes, and 9 diamonds as outs.

Which makes 14 outs, which make you a 51% favourite to win the hand :D

Thats for postflop.

As for preflop, i think you need to have a lot of experience to be able to handle 34 and hands like that postflop, so i wouldnt call big raises preflop with them. RAISING with it is fine though

I fixed your post.

seriously limping with them is real bad idea, I mean what do you want to flop? if you dont flop the nut straight you are in serious trouble and going to have to make some hard decisions which might be wrong ones. Again with those kinda hands you are looking to represent bigger ones.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Total posts
2,389
Chips
0
I dunno, Sklansky and Miller recommend calling raises from late position with suited connectors. I'd rather be in late position having called a raise than in middle position having raised with a caller behind. That's how you win the really big pots. Of course if you're really laggish, you can re-raise and get the best of both worlds.

In a cash game, I definitely push on this flop, as a favourite against an overpair and flipping with two higher diamonds, plus you have a lot of fold equity. In a turbo tournament, you know you're probably flipping, so up to you whether you want to take that chance to build a stack.
 
stormswa

stormswa

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 31, 2006
Total posts
3,545
Chips
0
well

I dunno, Sklansky and Miller recommend calling raises from late position with suited connectors. I'd rather be in late position having called a raise than in middle position having raised with a caller behind. That's how you win the really big pots. Of course if you're really laggish, you can re-raise and get the best of both worlds.

In a cash game, I definitely push on this flop, as a favourite against an overpair and flipping with two higher diamonds, plus you have a lot of fold equity. In a turbo tournament, you know you're probably flipping, so up to you whether you want to take that chance to build a stack.

yea but Slansky and miller are also alot better poker players then most and can get away from the hands if they don't hit. I would rather raise because that why I can get a better feel of where I stand in the hand. By calling you really have no idea where you stand and if the flop really hit them.


also remember I havent gone into position or chipstacks or anything else that is very important.
 
Last edited:
A

alan1983

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Total posts
641
Chips
0
yea but Slansky and miller are also alot better poker players then most and can get away from the hands if they don't hit. I would rather raise because that why I can get a better feel of where I stand in the hand. By calling you really have no idea where you stand and if the flop really hit them.


also remember I havent gone into position or chipstacks or anything else that is very important.

If you want to get away easily from them, then why are you sayin raise instead of limp preflop?
 
stormswa

stormswa

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 31, 2006
Total posts
3,545
Chips
0
ummm

If you want to get away easily from them, then why are you sayin raise instead of limp preflop?


because when you limp with a speculative hand like 7-8 suited or something like that you need to be able to fold the hand if you dont hit hard.

When you raise with the hand you are trying to represent a big hand and you actually want the flop to come out with 1 Broadway card. When you are playing a Lag style game you are betting and raising alot to put alot of pressure on your opponents, and you are also playing to get paid off big when you hit or when you actually have a big hand. So if you are going to limp with hand like 7-8 you have to be able to lay down your draw, there is little chance you are drawing to the best hand.
 
Top