Snowmen 3-bet preflop - bet,bet,fold?

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Cyclone9

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I feel like I took a pretty bad line. How would you play this hand?
$0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

BTN (BTN): $79.58
SB (SB): $43.00
BB (BB): $61.11
UTG (UTG): $43.67
MP (MP): $38.52
Hero (CO): $66.92

SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Dealt to Hero:
:8d4: :8s4:

UTG raises to $1.43, MP calls $1.43, Hero raises to $4.20, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP calls $2.77

Flop ($10.58, 2 players):
:qh4: :4s4: :7d4:
MP checks, Hero bets $5.00, MP calls $5.00

Turn ($20.58, 2 players):
:qd4:
MP checks, Hero bets $7.00, MP calls $7.00

River ($34.58, 2 players):
:kd4:
MP bets $22.32 and is all-in, fold

MP wins $32.86
 
AllenKll

AllenKll

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I think preflop was fine.

On the flop betting was where I see a mistake. And there are two schools of thought here.

1. Small probe bet. You put out a bet about 1/4 of the pot. If MP calls, you know he has you beat. Considering the preflop action, MP would have to put you on AQ, QQ, KK, AA, or 77 with your bet. Given that, a small probe bet would indicate to him that you have a hand.. This probe bet should end the hand by either you check/folding the turn, or him folding the flop

2. Pot sized bet to drive away the draws. Again same result, he calls, you check/fold, or he folds.

-----Unless of course the turn brings an 8 in which case, you re-evaluate.

By betting half pot it just looks like a continuation bet, and he has a reason to think you missed the flop and he stays in with his backdoor flush draw, top/top, or two cards he just likes.

My personal preference is #2 While, small flop bets can signal strength to a seasoned player, most are oblivious to the implications of the small flop bet, and think they are getting a deal on staying in. Also, a small bet gives them better pot odds for whatever draw they are on.
 
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Cyclone9

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Thanks, I like your reasoning. Do you think an 75-80% pot bet would accomplish the same result of option #2 or is it really just better to pot there? Also given the line I took do you think a fold on the river is the correct action?
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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Turning a value hand into a bluff (catcher?)

I feel like I took a pretty bad line. How would you play this hand?
$0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

BTN (BTN): $79.58
SB (SB): $43.00
BB (BB): $61.11
UTG (UTG): $43.67
MP (MP): $38.52
Hero (CO): $66.92

SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Dealt to Hero:
:8d4: :8s4:

UTG raises to $1.43, MP calls $1.43, Hero raises to $4.20, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP calls $2.77

Flop ($10.58, 2 players):
:qh4: :4s4: :7d4:
MP checks, Hero bets $5.00, MP calls $5.00

Turn ($20.58, 2 players):
:qd4:
MP checks, Hero bets $7.00, MP calls $7.00

River ($34.58, 2 players):
:kd4:
MP bets $22.32 and is all-in, fold

MP wins $32.86

Hi there Cyclone9, thank your for sharing your hand with the CardsChat community

The Preflop

Okay, you saw that both UTG and MP were broken stacks and then you decided to Squeeze. I don't like your sizing because you went to 2.93x raise, and here I like to polarize a little bit more given there are so many players yet to act. I would go for 3.5x or 4x, so we don't give excellent odds for other players to enter the pot, specially BTN.

the postflop

The Flop

MP checks a flop with overcard and you c-bet 1/2 pot. Let's suppose you are raising versus MP here with AQ, KQ, QJ, if you are blocking MP's range there is a higher fold frequency of MP's range than usual: it is a very easy fold for almost all the pocket pairs, weaker Queens would be speculating, or we would be even with AQ, KQ, since MP can have these combos.
Okay, we will have more AA, KK, QQ on our range, however 88 is not blocking any part of this range, we are not even bluff catching. Given that 88 has showdown value, I would rather check and take a free turn. When I c-bet, I'll go for 1/3 pot at maximum, because it is a 3-bet/Squeeze pot and the flop it is not very connected, that my value range would need so much protection. ;)

The Turn

It completes another Queen and a flush draw of diamonds, and now it is very hard for you to try to represent QQ on your range. AQ, KQ, QJ, if they were going to bet here, knowing that if we hold the Queens on our range it is not likely that Villain/MP also has a Queen i.e, we have all the nuts and MP doesn't, the chances of MP to fold even more its pocket pairs increase, MP's draws are dead, or check-raising turn for bluff, although we don't see many bluffs on a very dry flop like this.
Under the argument we should be protecting our range against the flushes of diamonds when we hold Qx, the fact is, Villain will not have many BDFs when it calls 1/2 c-bet flop, because BDFs have terrible odds to be calling this large bet, they would be folding or check-raising for bluff, IMO. If we do bet for value our Qx, it is never so little.
Your turn sizing is a tell that your range is not so strong: when you bet so small, I mean 1/3 pot on a turn like this, considering that you hold a hand with showdown value (88), plus that you have no bluffs here to balance your 1/3 pot, plus we are telling Villain that we have some pocket pair that has some value but it is not entirely safe, this is why we bet 1/3 pot to make MP to fold its AK, AJ, AT, A9, KJ, KT, JT, 22-77, etc. (but those are good bluff catchers and since you gave too much tells, Squeezing little, c-betting high flop and slowing down your sizing OTT, those very bluff catchers can put you in a lot of trouble on many rivers).
If we had a bluff on turn like this, and we don't, we should never bet 1/3 pot, specially at 50 NLHE, because we are giving excellent odds for Villain to float us on many rivers and if we call, we are guessing too much, thus doomed. Now if Villain has the BDF, it would be easily calling, or even if Villain only holds the Ace of Diamond as a bluff-catcher, if Ace of Diamonds shoves river you can never be calling with nothing that it is not a Qx, 44, 77, KK or KQ or you would be guessing very much.
When you catch a good card for bluffing, utilizing the proper range, because I think 88 has plenty of showdown value and after MP call 1/2 pot c-bet on a very dry board, where I barely have any bluffs, MP shows potential strength and we should be checking turn to evaluate the situation OTR and try to get a cheap showdown. Don't need to be scared of the BD that it came OTT.
Yes, when you go for 1/3 pot size on the turn you are giving too much information for Villain about your range.
If you'd believed that your 88 was a good bluff catcher because you are blocking some possible diamond structure, you should've bet 130%, 150%, 180%, polarizing your range for either you have a bluff (in this case you have a value hand this is why I wouldn't bother betting this turn for value, because I don't expect many worst hands to be paying) or the nuts, and I mean here Qx, QQ, 44 (are you Squeezing 44 vs UTG/MP?) 77, KK and KQ.
Consider that 88 is not blocking any part of this range, this is why I rather not to turn a good value hand into a bluff on a dry turn like this.

The River

Yeah, it completes a flush and come a horrible King of Diamonds and MP donks shove, giving us no option unless fold or go for that embarassing situation of "pay to see", when we know that almost never we are ahead here.
I rather Squeeze preflop a larger size and with hands that will have more playability against UTG/MP range, such as AJ, KJ, QJ, JT, T9, 98, the suited combos most of times.
When MP donks shove it can has only the Ace of Diamonds trying to make you fold the part of your range that 1/2 pot flop and 1/3 pot turn. Since it comes a flush draw OTT, we should be protecting our range and in situations like this where we can have AQ for example we don't want to give MP's flush draws an easy time and then we overbet turn for value/bluff when we have the proper combos.
Now MP can represent almost all the flushes (although it didn't had it a lot of BDFs OTF), all the KQ, all the Qx, 44 and 77 and if we call here thinking "it is doing it only with a missing Ace of Diamond flush draw" we are guessing and thus burning money.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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Cyclone9

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Okay, you saw that both UTG and MP were broken stacks and then you decided to Squeeze. I don't like your sizing because you went to 2.93x raise, and here I like to polarize a little bit more given there are so many players yet to act. I would go for 3.5x or 4x, so we don't give excellent odds for other players to enter the pot, specially BTN.

This seems like good advice. Are you making that play in this spot with 88 ever?

The Flop
MP checks a flop with overcard and you c-bet 1/2 pot. Let's suppose you are raising versus MP here with AQ, KQ, QJ, if you are blocking MP's range there is a higher fold frequency of MP's range than usual: it is a very easy fold for almost all the pocket pairs, weaker Queens would be speculating, or we would be even with AQ, KQ, since MP can have these combos.

Okay, we will have more AA, KK, QQ on our range, however 88 is not blocking any part of this range, we are not even bluff catching. Given that 88 has showdown value, I would rather check and take a free turn. When I c-bet, I'll go for 1/3 pot at maximum, because it is a 3-bet/Squeeze pot and the flop it is not very connected, that my value range would need so much protection. ;)

So when you check the flop and the second queen comes are you folding to a bet? Also what does checking here say about my range?

On the turn you don't think Qx is ever sizing down to 1/3 here especially since you don't think the villain stayed for the BDFs, so not much protection is needed for such a high value hand?

Thanks so much, I appreciate the analysis.
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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This seems like good advice. Are you making that play in this spot with 88 ever?



So when you check the flop and the second queen comes are you folding to a bet? Also what does checking here say about my range?

On the turn you don't think Qx is ever sizing down to 1/3 here especially since you don't think the villain stayed for the BDFs, so not much protection is needed for such a high value hand?

Thanks so much, I appreciate the analysis.

Thank you for your kindness. I can be Squeezing CO x UTG/MP with 88+, specially if I see they are broken stacks.
If you had the Qx, or some significant blocker, which you don't. 1/3 pot will make nothing to fold OTT. We don't need to much protection when we do have QQ, because which protection a Quads need? And when we only have Qx, AQ and KQ mostly, we are blocking most of combos of Qx that could call, then we are expecting to get value from a very specific part of Villain's range, AA, KK, maybes JJ, TT, 99.
You cannot simply represent anything/everything just because you made a preflop Squeeze. Like I said, you are turning a value hand (88) into a bluff and expect to be paid by which group of worst hands? AK? AJ? AT? 55? 33?

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
I am not a big fan of this 3-bet. 88 seem like a perfect hand to just call behind in position against an UTG open and UTG+1 call. You could even just fold, but that would be a bit on the tight side. The problem with the 3-bet is, that a hand like 88 has bad removal and very bad equity when called.

Postflop
Ok so UTG+1 first called a UTG open and then called our 3-bet out of position, when UTG folded. Now we need to assign him a range, which we think, he would do that with. I am thinking something in the line of 77-JJ, AQ, AJs, KQs. Hands like our own, that are not quite good enough to 3-bet an UTG open, but to strong to just fold.

So how are we doing against that range? Well we basically lose to anything except AJs, which mean, we can either give up or continue bluffing. Our hand is a bad candidate for bluffing, because it once again has bad removal, and it also has very little chance to improve. So we should simply check back and give up. Of course we can also spike our set on the turn, but this time we missed.
 
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wizcup

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I feel like I took a pretty bad line. How would you play this hand?
$0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

BTN (BTN): $79.58
SB (SB): $43.00
BB (BB): $61.11
UTG (UTG): $43.67
MP (MP): $38.52
Hero (CO): $66.92

SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Dealt to Hero:
:8d4: :8s4:

UTG raises to $1.43, MP calls $1.43, Hero raises to $4.20, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP calls $2.77

Flop ($10.58, 2 players):
:qh4: :4s4: :7d4:
MP checks, Hero bets $5.00, MP calls $5.00

Turn ($20.58, 2 players):
:qd4:
MP checks, Hero bets $7.00, MP calls $7.00

River ($34.58, 2 players):
:kd4:
MP bets $22.32 and is all-in, fold

MP wins $32.86
Hi, Thank you for sharing.

I hope to learn as I dissect your decision on each phase, so we can learn together.

Preflop

  • You have small pair. (22-99 are considered small pairs). If you have small pairs, you do not want to raise or 3-bet, call even limp call is considerable.
  • The reason is because it's only a pair and if you do not hit set on flop, your odds is very low. Check https://www.cardschat.com/odds-for-dummies.php for understanding that any pair hand that do not hit set on flop has the lowest odds of any other combination.
  • Second reason is your opponent position is MP. Keep in mind that in earlier position we tightening our hand range, so high possibility is he has great starting hand, either high card combination, high-low suited combination, or mid-high pair.
  • Hence, I think you should only call here.
Flop

  • You do not hit a set and there is a high card there and a dry board.
  • He check. (2 possibilities. He has no good hand or he has Q or pair 7 in his hand)
  • Normal decision should be check as your hand odds are very low.
  • However, your decision to bet half is also reasonable in order to get information. In here he is calling. This means he has something either a pair of Q or trips (Q or 7). Waiting for flush is impossible, the same for straight.
Turn

  • With information that we gather on flop, we should check. We have very mediocre hand in this and you already trying to get info in flop.
River

  • Folding is the best decision here.
  • Yes, the opponent probably bluffing, but he check-call twice, which has possibility of him setting a trap to you. Even if I have trips 7, I will probably fold.
I am a beginner though and that's all just my 2 cents. I also hope to learn and remind myself to analyze hands scenario.

Thanks again for sharing, pal.
 
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fundiver199

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Even if I have trips 7, I will probably fold.

That would be to nitty. With 77 we basically only lose to KQ, since he would have 3-bet KK, and QQ is only 1 combo. And he could certainly be leading with worse. Not only do we beat bluffs, but he could also be leading with a flush or with AQ, because he is scared, we will check back our AA or AK. With 88 we have an easy fold though.
 
stylebender72

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after utg's open and mp's flat you were not supposed to vpip wide in that spot and 88 are way too loose especially 80bb effective vs utg and mp, I dont mind folding it sounds nitty but its not, and calling would be fine at 200nl but at 50nl which is a high rake environment I dont like calling in this spot, anyway you elected to 3bet and mp called. mp is going to have 99-QQ AQ AJs ATs KQs.. ranges are narrow so on a Q47r flop in a 3bet pot I may cbet range using 1/4pot or 30%pot and reevaluate turn especially mp had 80bb at the start of the hand, cbetting 1/2 pot doesnt accomplish anything......................
 
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Casey55

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I think betting 1/3 flop would’ve been fine , since your probrably betting your whole range here because of range advantage it’s also cheaper for your bluffs. On the turn not much has changed besides backdoor diamonds. What kind of hands did he call with on the flop? AQ,KQs,QJs, maybe slow played 77? And some JJ,TT type hands, I don’t see him folding much here JJ and TT probrably going to look you up when the Q pairs. On the river Villain should have very few flush combos in his range because the K and Q of diamonds is on the board, what kind of flushes is he going to have here? They are hard to find, not many I suspect. River is good fold.
 
Aballinamion

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Preflop
I am not a big fan of this 3-bet. 88 seem like a perfect hand to just call behind in position against an UTG open and UTG+1 call. You could even just fold, but that would be a bit on the tight side. The problem with the 3-bet is, that a hand like 88 has bad removal and very bad equity when called.

Postflop
Ok so UTG+1 first called a UTG open and then called our 3-bet out of position, when UTG folded. Now we need to assign him a range, which we think, he would do that with. I am thinking something in the line of 77-JJ, AQ, AJs, KQs. Hands like our own, that are not quite good enough to 3-bet an UTG open, but to strong to just fold.

So how are we doing against that range? Well we basically lose to anything except AJs, which mean, we can either give up or continue bluffing. Our hand is a bad candidate for bluffing, because it once again has bad removal, and it also has very little chance to improve. So we should simply check back and give up. Of course we can also spike our set on the turn, but this time we missed.

Thank you fundiver199, that's exactly what I was trying to say. You express things in a very understandable form.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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wizcup

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That would be to nitty. With 77 we basically only lose to KQ, since he would have 3-bet KK, and QQ is only 1 combo. And he could certainly be leading with worse. Not only do we beat bluffs, but he could also be leading with a flush or with AQ, because he is scared, we will check back our AA or AK. With 88 we have an easy fold though.

I agree with it. I was haste on making that comment. Will edit it.
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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Flop
  • However, your decision to bet half is also reasonable in order to get information. In here he is calling. This means he has something either a pair of Q or trips (Q or 7). Waiting for flush is impossible, the same for straight.
Hello there wizcup, thank you for your comments. Sorry for my candor here, but we are not betting/calling/raising for information, this is not poker. We bet for value and for bluff, only.
And if for some weird reason we are betting for information, it should not be so much:
Hero goes for 1/2 pot on a 3-bet/Squeeze Pot, this is way too large.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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gustav197poker

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It depends on the readings we have of the villain. This is NL50 so we don't expect a bluff range here donking too often. The fact that you block an OESD on the river is not a good thing, as it increases the villain's value range. Our pocket does not have enough bluff catcher strength. I'm not concerned about Ad because a standard range would not seek isolation with a good hand that he blocking. I think it is a standard fold for NL50. I agree that on the flop a smaller size could work better, if the goal is to get worse hands to surrender in the next streets. Probably when the card was doubled the villain thought you gave up and that's why he pushed on the river. The texture does not favor us and the villain knows it. But your rank isn't in good shape right now, so it's not worth the risk here.
Greetings.
 
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