Sizing bets based on table position

Keeping with my trying to get better at ring i was ghost shadowing TenBob at $50NL and this hand came up. AQ, a marginal UTG hand but very playable hand. Given the position of UTG, should you raise small or big? Why? I'm not mainly just looking at this hand but ingeneral.


lets get a good debate going....

PokerStars Game #10169779886: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2007/05/29 - 16:53:50 (ET)
Table 'Hale-Bopp IV' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: pdoggios ($125.05 in chips)
Seat 2: frkon8r ($23.20 in chips)
Seat 3: tenbob ($73.10 in chips)
Seat 4: Mr_Smith83 ($22.10 in chips)
Seat 5: llGtphshll ($47.65 in chips)
Seat 6: TheMaster888 ($58.60 in chips)
Seat 7: rafaello1986 ($18.95 in chips)
Seat 8: Max Cady ($88.15 in chips)
Seat 9: kontacks ($35.35 in chips)
pdoggios: posts small blind $0.25
frkon8r: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt To Tenbob [Ah Qc]
tenbob:

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As a first-in raise, you should try to stick to the same amount every time. 3-5BBs is the standard.

I will occasionally vary my bets from EP to LP by raising 3BBs or 4BBs respectively, but that's for the reason that people simply respect EP raises more than LP.

3BBs is fine, really.

How about under-raiseing....1 BB, 2 BB?

https://www.cardschat.com/f49/stop-minraising-71694/?highlight=stop+minraising

^^^that.

ChuckTs said:

As a first-in raise, you should try to stick to the same amount every time. 3-5BBs is the standard.

I will occasionally vary my bets from EP to LP by raising 3BBs or 4BBs respectively, but that's for the reason that people simply respect EP raises more than LP.

3BBs is fine, really.

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So your saying stick to standard? Meaning the same size raise as usual? Meaning.....table position doesnt matter?

How about under-raiseing....1 BB, 2 BB?

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That's asking for trouble and giving someone with position the opportunity to get in cheaper than they should and hurt you on subsequent streets.

Also can set of a series of calls as each subsequent person has better and better pot odds.

mischman said:

So your saying stick to standard? Meaning the same size raise as usual? Meaning.....table position doesnt matter?

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You may be able to stick at the bottom end of your raising range in ep as the bet itself has slightly more value compared to a similar size bet in late position. Not to be overstated and only to be considered a factor when the table is sensitive enough to these things.

mischman said:

So your saying stick to standard? Meaning the same size raise as usual? Meaning.....table position doesnt matter?

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Well like I said,

ChuckTs said:

I will occasionally vary my bets from EP to LP by raising 3BBs or 4BBs respectively, but that's for the reason that people simply respect EP raises more than LP.

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But, raising 3BBs from any position is absolutely fine.

ChuckTs said:

Well like I said,

But, raising 3BBs from any position is absolutely fine.

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I disagree, generally as im oop for the hand ill raise less than if i was on the button. My hand is marginal, i dont want to commit myself to playing a big pot to a donk minraise, which will happen if i raise 5or more BB. As my table position becomes better, ill be happier playing bigger and bigger pots.

tenbob said:

I disagree, generally as im oop for the hand ill raise less than if i was on the button. My hand is marginal, i dont want to commit myself to playing a big pot to a donk minraise, which will happen if i raise 5or more BB. As my table position becomes better, ill be happier playing bigger and bigger pots.

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I won't argue with that; good point TB.

I think Phil Gordon says 2.5 - 4.5 (or was it 5.5?) but he keeps his consistent with position; lower end in early and more in late. By keeping it consistent with position he figures you can't get a read on how strong this specific hand is.

But to some extent that requires the assumption that your table understands position and respects UTG raises even though it's a smaller amount, not always a safe assumption at the levels I play.

I like to stick to a range of 3-4x BB. I'm not a big fan of AQo UTG, either.

I have to agree that a 3x-5x raise in this position is fine, and I try to maintain all my preflop raises, in any position, within this range. I think that by lowering your raise based on position is fine, if you keep that raise the same despite hand strength. If you raise less in EP with weaker hands, and raise more with stronger hands... this is something that other players may pick up on.

Granted most players only play there own hand and are oblivious to this, you are giving observant players information. I like to keep my raises around the same amount regardless of position or hand strength.

UTG i like my raises to be smaller not too keen on committing chips from this position as i am not too comfortable playing from here.

Late position i would like to make my raises higher, particularly
at lower stakes, as they have committed chips to the pot their pot odds are worth a call if the raise is small enough.

id prefer a smaller raise here, especially UTG

i was in the habit of my "standard raise" regardless of position but what happens if you miss the flop completely?

a) check?
b) fire a C-bet?

If you check it surely you are inviting someone in late position to steal the pot then you have to decide if you keep calling with A high.

If you c-bet then any attentive player in late position will realise whats happening and relieve you of your chips and cash when they trap you!

It's AQos with 8 players still to act - why has no-one said fold? I'm saying it - FOLD!

yep

robwhufc said:

It's AQos with 8 players still to act - why has no-one said fold? I'm saying it - FOLD!

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I was waiting for this as I read response after response. I think though folding wasnt a option here it was what would you raise and why.


personally I would fold this unless I was in a real weak table I feel I can outplay postflop. If I was going to come in though I would raise 2.5x - 4.5x . All depends though, there is no clear cut answer here it all depends on table.

Ah come on, the majority of posters here should be able to outplay 99% of $50nl players post flop.

Just have a look Rob at your mininum starting requirements for raising PF UTG. AQo is just on my verge and it depends on the table conditions, would you raise more or less given the same hand but different table position.

tenbob said:

Ah come on, the majority of posters here should be able to outplay 99% of $50nl players post flop.

Just have a look Rob at your mininum starting requirements for raising PF UTG. AQo is just on my verge and it depends on the table conditions, would you raise more or less given the same hand but different table position.

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yep, I can honestly say I would play the hand differently in later positions. UTG I would fold this alot because it is a trouble hand and I do not want to play it out of position the entire hand. Im very tight in early position and very loose in later positions.

Depends on the table I think. Pretty often I bin this pre-flop, but when I open a pot I like to raise a standard 3-5 BB regardless of position.

If you're playing a TAGgy game then a raise UTG is associated with extreme strength isn't it? Your opponents are going to range you around AK/AA/KK/QQ. (image dependant. assumed TAG play) With AQ don't you want to preserve that image in your opponents minds by making a standard sized rather than a smaller opening raise? Or don't you think this matters?

Another questions is, do you think the effect of scaling opening raises by position has a major effect on the hand reading ability of your opponents?

dont change the amount of the raise based on the strength of the hand. base the amount of the raise on the position & players left to act.

that being said i probably limp vs a more aggressive table and raise versus a loose fishy table.

Well, mish, you got your good debate going here.

I am still in the stage of play where if I would be sitting with AQ in LP, or the CO, where I would raise, I might limp here. Especially without a large stack. Large stack I would probably standard 3x here UTG if I thought anyone would respect me. But truthfully, UTG is a position I seldom play from, and as my game is in serious flux these days, I might do anything. Limp, min raise (a devious weapon used correctly), or standard raise. I haven't figured out larger than 3x bets yet, till it gets to the All In.

Since you mention that this is a ring game, and I have got worse at ring games as my tourney play advances, you all can disregard everything I have just mumbled............

remember this?:

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/preflop-raise-theory-two-83531/

dj11 said:

Well, misCh, you got your good debate going here.

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i kno