sh4gnscoob's first week's questionable hands

Alright, these all took place in full ring .05/.10 limit hold em on pokerstars. there are a couple here since I'm just getting around to searching through the past few day's histories. I barely have any reads on anyone yet, except that the games I'm playing in start out really loose and gradually get tighter and tighter the longer I stay. Usually the plrs/flop is at %50+

First-- I needed one of the 4 T's or 3 J's to have a hand (barring a set, even though that's what happened). But now that I think about it, the pot was only laying me .52 to.10 which is slightly worse than 46 to 8. Furthermore, I didn't have a good read on the villain so I wasn't sure about their set. It appears as though I played this correctly, although at the time I don't think I knew why I did it.

RobbiesDad: posts small blind $0.02
sh4gnscoob: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sh4gnscoob [9c Jh]
jayzcardz: calls $0.05
madpockets: folds
Dan255: calls $0.05
s`Judith: calls $0.05
slapwaxster: folds
10goto10: folds
RobbiesDad: calls $0.03
sh4gnscoob: checks
*** FLOP *** [8c 4h 7s]
RobbiesDad: checks
sh4gnscoob: checks
jayzcardz: checks
Dan255: checks
s`Judith: bets $0.05
RobbiesDad: folds
sh4gnscoob: calls $0.05
jayzcardz: folds
Dan255: calls $0.05
*** TURN *** [8c 4h 7s] 5--
sh4gnscoob: checks
Dan255: bets $0.04 and is all-in
s`Judith: raises $0.06 to $0.10
sh4gnscoob: folds

Second-- Okay I had no idea what I was doing I think. I had an open ended straight draw and didn't hit it, but bet on the river trying to bluff I guess and he check-raised me so I folded, but I still lost a lot of money by betting on the flop, turn AND river, not to mention was drawing heads up. But isn't an open-ended straight only a 2:1 dog? So heads up is okay...? Ick.

chindit: posts small blind $0.02
jimmyp88: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sh4gnscoob [Qc Js]
ky-logger: calls $0.05
sernuss: calls $0.05
SorryFugu: folds
jav007: calls $0.05
little rambo: folds
Steviev999: folds
sh4gnscoob: calls $0.05
crazy_engelb: calls $0.05
chindit: folds
jimmyp88: checks
*** FLOP *** [Tc 5d Kh]
jimmyp88: checks
ky-logger: checks
sernuss: checks
jav007: checks
sh4gnscoob: bets $0.05
crazy_engelb: folds
jimmyp88: folds
ky-logger: folds
sernuss: calls $0.05
jav007: folds
*** TURN *** [Tc 5d Kh] 7♥
sernuss: checks
sh4gnscoob: bets $0.10
sernuss: calls $0.10
*** RIVER *** [Tc 5d Kh 7h] 6♣
sernuss: checks
sh4gnscoob: bets $0.10
sernuss: raises $0.10 to $0.20
sh4gnscoob: folds


Third-- Hit the top pair on the flop with a few callers PF so I raised. When I saw the 3rd heart drop I guess I decided to check and call (Calling Station GG), but luckily a 4th heart dropped, and I hit the King High flush (with a queen in the hole). I expected a split pot.

slovolg: posts small blind $0.02
Micha1180: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sh4gnscoob [As Qh]
sh4gnscoob: raises $0.05 to $0.10
KiloBaud: folds
poupout09: folds
Tom1201: calls $0.10
FFEJA: calls $0.10
kresse78: folds
westypoo: folds
jspraggi: folds
KiloBaud leaves the table
slovolg: folds
Micha1180: calls $0.05
*** FLOP *** [7h 4h Ad]
Micha1180: checks
Skinny Gecko joins the table at seat #3
sh4gnscoob: bets $0.05
Tom1201: calls $0.05
FFEJA: calls $0.05
Micha1180: calls $0.05
*** TURN *** [7h 4h Ad] 6♥
Micha1180: checks
sh4gnscoob: checks
Tom1201: checks
FFEJA: bets $0.10
Micha1180: calls $0.10
sh4gnscoob: calls $0.10
Tom1201: calls $0.10
*** RIVER *** [7h 4h Ad 6h] K♥
Micha1180: checks
sh4gnscoob: bets $0.10
Tom1201: raises $0.10 to $0.20
FFEJA: folds
Micha1180: folds
sh4gnscoob: calls $0.10
*** SHOW DOWN ***

Anyway, I'm collecting other hands in another file that I'm looking over and trying to analyze for myself.

Just looked at the first hand so far. You didn't say what suit the 5 was. I don't play limit hold em much but I'd probably call the turn.

Looks like you're getting 5.4 to 1 for your 8 outs (can't count the Jacks as outs) It's likely your bet is called on the river should you do hit.

Jeez just spent 10 mins replying to this to find out it's limit .

Hahaha sorry. Maybe I should have put it in the title.

What were the 8 outs if J's don't count?

The 5 was diamonds, I haven't figured out the converter yet, but the forum automatically changed it to something that had code in it so I just made it look like the red 5--

I wish I had a better way to analyze my own histories, but PokerTracker costs twice my bankroll right now (Started at $50, I'm down to $44)

shagnscoob said:

Dealt to sh4gnscoob [9c Jh]

*** TURN *** [8c 4h 7s] 5d
sh4gnscoob: checks
Dan255: bets $0.04 and is all-in
s`Judith: raises $0.06 to $0.10
sh4gnscoob: folds

Click to expand...

6's and Tens are your outs. A jack might give you the best hand, but its hard to say with any certainty. Either way, this is worth a call as you're getting a 5.4:1 price on your 5.25:1 draw, and you're getting decent implied odds for another big bet on the river.

Also, in this hand, you should have folded on the flop IMO. I'd say you have about 7 outs if you count your jacks on the flop (and the jacks are iffy). So you have a 6.1:1 draw to the turn, and you're getting 6:1, but that's only if you count your jacks as outs, which they may not be.

But isn't an open-ended straight only a 2:1 dog? So heads up is okay...? Ick.

Click to expand...

You're a 2:1 dog with 2 cards to come. But you have to pay for the river and the turn individually. So to make you have a 5.25:1 draw to make your straight on the turn & river. When you bet on the flop, that's fine, since you're giving yourself 7.4:1 odds on your call.

The turn bet is fine as well. You fired 10 cents into 42 cents. If your opponent calls, that gives you 5.2:1 pot odds, and you have a 5.25:1 draw. Add in the possibility that he folds, and I like the bet.

The river bluff is questionable. At these limits, players are rarely folding, but the bluff only has to work 1 in every 5 times or so to break even, so its not a bad bluff. If there was a busted flush draw out there or more money in the pot, I'd like the bet a little more. But on this rainbow, fairly dry board, I think you should probably let it go.

As a rule of thumb, I wouldn't bluff the river so much in limit when you're starting out.

*** TURN *** [7h 4h Ad] 6♥
Micha1180: checks
sh4gnscoob: checks
Tom1201: checks
FFEJA: bets $0.10
Micha1180: calls $0.10
sh4gnscoob: calls $0.10
Tom1201: calls $0.10
*** RIVER *** [7h 4h Ad 6h] K♥
Micha1180: checks
sh4gnscoob: bets $0.10
Tom1201: raises $0.10 to $0.20
FFEJA: folds
Micha1180: folds
sh4gnscoob: calls $0.10
*** SHOW DOWN ***

Click to expand...

The turn is kinda iffy. When you're called in so many spots, you've gotta assume there's a flush draw out there. So if someone has a made flush, you're getting 8.2:1 to draw to your 7 dirty outs (or a 6:1 draw). However, they may have the ace high flush already and you're drawing dead. So, I don't think its a terrible call. But if you knew this player liked to play suited aces, then I could see laying this down.

On the river, its impossible for the pot to be split. He either has a higher heart than you, or he doesn't. You have the 2nd best hand possible, only the ace of hearts has you beat. So at these limits, I certainly think its worth betting the river for value.

You played most of these hands fairly well. But you should probably tighten up a bit. When you said you start out playing loose, and then tighten up, you should really just be playing tight & aggressive poker from the get go.

J9 hand - I will occasionally call on flops like this in position, but OOP I fold the flop here.

QJ hand - Take the free card on the turn and check-fold river. Villain here likely has some sort of flopped hand - on a KT5r flop there are no real draws he could be calling with aside from another QJ, so we have to assume to call the flop and turn he has some sort of hand, and any sort of made hand isn't folding the river ever at .02/.05 LHE.

Alright, thanks for the input. I need to practice reading my outs, and reading the flop, there have been a couple hands when I thought I had the nuts and then I look back and see there's a flush draw or a straight draw, that's embarrassing. Not to mention getting the odds all mixed up, I thought I played those hands really poorly until I sat there and thought about the odds myself and realized they aren't all that bad.


It's weird though to think that in that session I started out with $3 and ended up below $1, and yet I didn't seem to lose very much outside of those 3 hands. I'm going to start looking over my HH from the previous night each day and picking out hands I thought sucked and putting them all in a word file so I can look back at them and maybe post them.

I lost a TON of money on this hand. I made a big mistake by calling at the end, but that wasn't what cost me a lot of money I don't think. I think I played this hand correctly all the way to the river, where I incorrectly called a bet and lost.

leon graf: posts small blind $0.02
sandbagger39: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sh4gnscoob [Qd Ac]
FPauler79: calls $0.05
flushmilla: raises $0.05 to $0.10
Siris5: calls $0.10
Hargis44: folds
bryan523: folds
sh4gnscoob: raises $0.05 to $0.15
1bladehand: folds
leon graf: folds
sandbagger39: calls $0.10
Micha1180 joins the table at seat #9
FPauler79: calls $0.10
flushmilla: raises $0.05 to $0.20
Betting is capped
Siris5: calls $0.10
sh4gnscoob: calls $0.05
sandbagger39: calls $0.05
FPauler79: calls $0.05
*** FLOP *** [4c As 8s]
sandbagger39: checks
FPauler79: checks
flushmilla: checks
Siris5: bets $0.05
sh4gnscoob: raises $0.05 to $0.10
sandbagger39: calls $0.10
FPauler79: folds
flushmilla: calls $0.10
Siris5: calls $0.05
*** TURN *** [4c As 8s] [6c]
sandbagger39: checks
flushmilla: checks
Siris5: checks
sh4gnscoob: bets $0.10
sandbagger39: calls $0.10
flushmilla: calls $0.10
Siris5: calls $0.10
*** RIVER *** [4c As 8s 6c] [9s]
sandbagger39: checks
flushmilla: checks
Siris5: bets $0.10
sh4gnscoob: calls $0.10
sandbagger39: calls $0.10
flushmilla: folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Siris5: shows [6s 3s] (a flush, Ace high)
sh4gnscoob: mucks hand
sandbagger39: shows [Qs 4s] (a flush, Ace high - Queen higher)
sandbagger39 collected $2.02 from pot

This hand is just embarrassing. I played it very poorly, I think after the flop and the first raise I should have just folded because obviously someone could have had a jack. Even though the guy slow-played I should have known one was out there and just gave up instead of getting so deep into the hand. This was only a couple hands after the one I just posted so maybe I was tilting. I could have saved myself .40 (8 blinds, or 4 big bets) by folding after the flop when there was a bet and raise.

Micha1180: posts small blind $0.02
leon graf: posts big blind $0.05
WalkerHK: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to sh4gnscoob [As Kc]
sandbagger39: folds
FPauler79: calls $0.05
flushmilla: raises $0.05 to $0.10
A1P33D3r: calls $0.10
bryan523: folds
sh4gnscoob: calls $0.10
1bladehand: calls $0.10
Micha1180: folds
leon graf: folds
FPauler79: calls $0.05
*** FLOP *** [Jd Ks Jc]
FPauler79: bets $0.05
flushmilla: raises $0.05 to $0.10
A1P33D3r: calls $0.10
sh4gnscoob: calls $0.10
1bladehand: calls $0.10
FPauler79: calls $0.05
*** TURN *** [Jd Ks Jc] [4h]
FPauler79: checks
flushmilla: bets $0.10
A1P33D3r: folds
sh4gnscoob: calls $0.10
1bladehand: calls $0.10
FPauler79: calls $0.10
*** RIVER *** [Jd Ks Jc 4h] [2s]
FPauler79: bets $0.10
flushmilla: folds
flushmilla leaves the table
sh4gnscoob: raises $0.10 to $0.20
1bladehand: calls $0.20
FPauler79: calls $0.10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sh4gnscoob: shows [As Kc] (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
1bladehand: mucks hand
FPauler79: shows [Js 3s] (three of a kind, Jacks)
FPauler79 collected $1.97 from pot

Yeah last hand you let too many people make it to flop to think you're hand is good, You can reraise AK to try to thin field. I don't know if that works at .05/.10 though, at .02/.04 3bets seems to invite all kinds of garbage...like J3.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen people cap the bets and get 3 or 4 callers. After reading the histories there were a couple guys in those hands that continuously raised/called with hands like JXs QXs and various other junk suited hands.

I suspect that at that limit it may have just been an unlucky flop and that even had I capped betting I would have seen a jack at the showdown.

I think right now my biggest leak is not knowing when I'm beat, or at least not recognizing that my hand is easily defeated by another that saw the flop.

shagnscoob said:

I can't tell you how many times I've seen people cap the bets and get 3 or 4 callers. After reading the histories there were a couple guys in those hands that continuously raised/called with hands like JXs QXs and various other junk suited hands.

I suspect that at that limit it may have just been an unlucky flop and that even had I capped betting I would have seen a jack at the showdown.

I think right now my biggest leak is not knowing when I'm beat, or at least not recognizing that my hand is easily defeated by another that saw the flop.

Click to expand...

At these limits (in limit hold'em) its really hard to know, because the play is so erratic. And there's a ton of variance, because players call with all types of hands & draws.

Here's my advice:

1) Try out 6max. You get less players, and thus less players drawing out on you. There's a bit less variance.

2) If you're gonna play full ring, then tighten up and play a lot of big drawing hands in position. These multiway pots REALLY favor hands like suited aces & suited kings where you can draw to a nut flush draw with a lot of players calling your bets.

3) Cap AK preflop, raise flop, just call river. We're not capping the betting just to get J3 to fold. We're also a favorite over J3, and we're getting him to pay us while we're ahead.

Yeah in retrospect I feel I should be far more aggressive on my winning hands, and far more ready to fold on my "mediocre" hands (even if I'm playing very tight). Especially after the flop hits/misses me completely.

I might give 6 max a go.

I haven't been playing KXs in position, but definitely AXs. Is KXs really an alright bet? I feel like anyone at the table would take AX suited or not to the river and cause me problems if I hit my flush.

shagnscoob said:

I haven't been playing KXs in position, but definitely AXs. Is KXs really an alright bet? I feel like anyone at the table would take AX suited or not to the river and cause me problems if I hit my flush.

Click to expand...

If you make a K high flush at the same time that they make an ace high flush, that's just a huge cooler. And when you have players playing hands like this:

Siris5: shows [6s 3s]

Click to expand...

You're going to more than make up for getting coolered by AXs by coolering the hell out of them small flushes.

The real key here is that the table is loose, the vast majority of the pots are multi-way. You're not going to be able to limit the field, so your TPTK hands won't hold up all that often. So take advantage of this and start playing hands that play really well in multi-way pots.

Also, with your off-suit broadway hands like AJ/KJ/ect., you might want to consider just calling preflop if your raise will fail to eliminate other players. That way, your bet on the flop gives them less pot odds to draw at you, and you can fold cheaply when you miss. Your opponents will therefore be making a bigger mistake when you flop a good hand because the pot is smaller.

c9h13no3 said:

If you make a K high flush at the same time that they make an ace high flush, that's just a huge cooler. And when you have players playing hands like this:You're going to more than make up for getting coolered by AXs by coolering the hell out of them small flushes.

The real key here is that the table is loose, the vast majority of the pots are multi-way. You're not going to be able to limit the field, so your TPTK hands won't hold up all that often. So take advantage of this and start playing hands that play really well in multi-way pots.

Also, with your off-suit broadway hands like AJ/KJ/ect., you might want to consider just calling preflop if your raise will fail to eliminate other players. That way, your bet on the flop gives them less pot odds to draw at you, and you can fold cheaply when you miss. Your opponents will therefore be making a bigger mistake when you flop a good hand because the pot is smaller.

Click to expand...

Okay I'll start playing suited kings. Another thing I'm noticing is that perhaps I'm overestimating the damage to my bankroll by the blinds. I just sat a table for 22 hands and I'm down .21 because the blinds passed me 3 times and I've only seen the flop once.

If AJ/KJ are "winning hands" over time though, it seems like you'd still want to raise pre-flop to get the most money out of them. I guess they may not be "winning hands" as much as I thought if they are unsuited and play against so many flush draws, in which case I see what you mean. Not to mention if I hit and they don't, they are already into the flop encouraging them to stay to the end drawing dead.

shagnscoob said:

If AJ/KJ are "winning hands" over time though, it seems like you'd still want to raise pre-flop to get the most money out of them. I guess they may not be "winning hands" as much as I thought if they are unsuited and play against so many flush draws, in which case I see what you mean. Not to mention if I hit and they don't, they are already into the flop encouraging them to stay to the end drawing dead.

Click to expand...

Yeah, this concept is from David Sklansky's series of books. I happened to read it in the Stud book, but I wouldn't doubt that the same concept applies to limit hold'em.

But yeah, the problem with AJ, KJ, AQ, QT, ect. is that unless they're suited, they're pretty much only going to flop top pair. And while top pair is a strong holding in a heads up pot, when there are more players in the pot, and it is very easy to draw out on you.

AJ & KJ are also different from AK in that they are less likely to have your opponent dominated, so there's less value in raising them preflop.

You should still be raising the quality suited broadway hands for value though, since the extra odds of a flush draw make it so that you don't mind playing in a multi-way pot.

So yeah, if in the cutoff, and there was an under the gun raise, and 3 other players call it, just call with AJos, KQos, ect and look to limit the field later in the hand. Raising again is unlikely to fold out any of those 4 players still in the hand.

I agree with c9 about playing 6max. From your posts you don't have any major flaws in play shag. I don't think i'm a good limit holdem player but i think i'm up 3000 bigbets in 2mo limit play 1 table. How? find the worst players. I think i'm break even against decent/good players.

Alright, I'm going to start calling bets with offsuited broadways. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure why I was betting/raising with them anyway. I just capped betting PF with KK, rags rainbow flop, bet again, turn is Kh, river is another heart, and someone hit a flush draw with QJs after calling bets on every round. Ouch. And I was up for awhile there

It's extremely hard to get to the river after having put a dollar in the hand and seeing the 3rd of a suit hit, and you look at your set of kings... ohhhhhh man.

Are 6max players not as good or something? Looking at plrs/flop, the 6max tables look looser than the ones I'm in already. Im usually at a table between 45-55% with 10 people. Oh nevermind I just read his reasoning over again, makes sense.

well shorter the table the easier it is to call down/ more likely you're ahead. Find players that raise constantly/ take their money.

Oh btw, when I lose money at this level, it sucks because it makes me feel like a crappy poker player. My BR started at $50 and I'm down to like $43? That's only $7. I've spent like 1.5x my bankroll on books about poker. THATS FRUSTRATING. To sit there and read the books and think "Damn I'm going to kick ass" and then lose to someone who calls raises with 32s makes me feel like a moron hahahaha

I want to be good! Not win cents off these idiots.

shagnscoob said:

Alright, I'm going to start calling bets with offsuited broadways.

Click to expand...

Only if you can't raise to eliminate players with those marginal hands. For example:

===================
Situation #1
===================

10 players, full ring, full stacks.

Hero has KQos

Player 1 calls
Player 2 folds
Player 3 & 4 calls
Player 5 raises
2 Players fold
Hero re-raises

Now other opponents have to call 2 raises to see flop. This raise will possibly eliminate players.


===================
Situation #2
===================

10 players, full ring, full stacks.

Hero has KQos

Player 1 calls
Player 2 folds
Player 3 raises
Player 4, 5 call
2 Players fold
Hero calls

In this situation raising might eliminate player 1, but players 3, 4, and 5 are almost always calling your raise at these micro limits. Since your hand isn't overly strong, and our equity edge against them preflop isn't exceptionally high, we should just call.

You just need to realize that there are two reasons you raise preflop:

1) To reduce the number of players seeing the flop.
2) To get value from our hands that are big favorites.

If you can't accomplish goal #1 (and this is almost all the time at these limits), and our hand isn't a big favorite over the likely hands that we're against, then we should just call.

This is rarely a problem in No Limit, however, since you can raise a much larger amount, and its easier to thin the field. Now if you had KQs, then I'd suggest raising in the 2nd situation, because now you don't really mind a multiway pot, because it will help you when you flop a flush draw.


EDIT - And a note on the "being good" part. Books are somewhat helpful, but they usually apply to limits that are a lot higher than the ones you're playing. online poker at the micro levels (especially in limit) is really a different game. It'll take an adjustment period to get to the point where you've optimized your play for such loose players.

And check your PM's scoob.

Wow 6max tables go really fast.

I'm starting to see more about position besides just what hands you can play. I understand how it relates to calling/raising and I'll start trying to look for that in my play.

What's funny is that the books I'm reading are Low-Limit books. Winning Low Limit Hold Em, and I just got Small Stakes Hold Em.

shagnscoob said:

Alright, I'm going to start calling bets with offsuited broadways.

Click to expand...

Making 'rules' like this is a little dangerous. Your preflop play with say KQo should vary in accordance with the action before you. Some examples:

- UTG at a full ring hyper-aggro table - you should be folding, maybe raising a very small percentage of the time.
- Anywhere after an early position raise from a very tight player - you should be folding.
- On the button after a LP openraise from an aggressive player - you should be calling or reraising.
- On the BB after a SB openraise from a LAG - you should be reraising.

...and so on.

Playing 6-max is very good for getting to learn the merits of position, as you invariably will be involved in more hands than a FR table and will have to adjust your play based on position more (as opposed to set mining which is still profitable at micro FR).

Looking at my stats I see the flop like 80% of the time on the BB. Maybe I'm just having a bad week and getting absolutely awful hands. I'll sit there for an hour and see maybe 5 flops outside of being a BB.

I understand about the rules, I just meant I'll pay more attention to it.

I just don't understand how I'm losing money still. I'm getting sucked out every time I get in a pot, or I'm playing so aggressive that everyone else folds and I don't win anything. I just lost another to a guy who hit a deuce to 6 straight on the river after I flopped TPTK. I guess I should have known seeing as we mentioned TPTK not being as strong as we thought anyway. I'd like to point out that Lee Jones says it's the best way to earn money in low-limit because so many people will play with medium/bottom pair.

I'll be reviewing the hands I played tonight tomorrow, and possibly will post a couple.