River fold ????

Tx149 was the typical loose aggressive player, could he have been slowplaying here? Would you call the river bet ? I should have raised the turn to at least find out where i stood, i was HU on a $20 sit and go at the time.



pokerstars GAME #5534826341: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/07/12 - 11:35:26 (ET)
Table 'Unitas' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: tenbob ($45.75 in chips)
Seat 3: deloison ($19.50 in chips)
Seat 4: KoKeR ($51.80 in chips)
Seat 5: tx149 ($41.05 in chips)
deloison: posts small blind $0.25
KoKeR: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tenbob [Jh Ts]
tx149: calls $0.50
tenbob: calls $0.50
deloison: calls $0.25
KoKeR: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ks 4h Kh]
deloison: checks
KoKeR: checks
tx149: checks
tenbob: checks
*** TURN *** [Ks 4h Kh] [Jd]
deloison: checks
KoKeR: checks
tx149: bets $1
tenbob: calls $1
deloison: calls $1
KoKeR: folds
*** RIVER *** [Ks 4h Kh Jd] [Js]
deloison: checks
tx149: bets $2.50
tenbob: raises $2.50 to $5
deloison: folds
tx149: raises $34.55 to $39.55 and is all-in

I would fold here. I smell slowplay. He checked on the flop. He made a modest bet on the turn probably wanting to get rid of straight of flush chasers. Then, he made a good size bet hoping someone would call on the river. When you raised, he pounced with the all in. He either has the King or a Jack (whether he has a higher kicker or not you can't really tell).

He obviously has a full house, quite likely he has the K and is looking for a call. I fold here and be thankful I only lost $6.50

Tim, kicker is irrelivant as it's a full house if he has a K or a J.

I'd say fold here, though being the donk I am I would have called the bet on the river just to see, instead of the raise.

kicka don't need worry T1riel

JAMILE1 said:

though being the donk I am I would have called the bet on the river just to see, instead of the raise.

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I think this is sensible. What worse hands is he calling a river raise with?

(and as said in the OP, raise the turn)

I don't understand the river raise here, TB - the only hands that are betting into you here are Kings full, Jacks full, possibly AA or QQ or Ace high (all three very unlikely). Basically I see it as a 50/50 situation that you're either splitting the pot, or behind, with a tiny percentage of the time him bluffing.

I like a call on the river instead. Given your raise, I've gotta fold here. He could have the king or the jack - it doesn't matter to me, because I'm not going to risk my stack on an underfull with that dangerous a board.

ChuckTs said:

I don't understand the river raise here, TB - the only hands that are betting into you here are Kings full, Jacks full, possibly AA or QQ or Ace high (all three very unlikely). Basically I see it as a 50/50 situation that you're either splitting the pot, or behind, with a tiny percentage of the time him bluffing.

I like a call on the river instead. Given your raise, I've gotta fold here. He could have the king or the jack - it doesn't matter to me, because I'm not going to risk my stack on an underfull with that dangerous a board.

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I dont really know why i raised looking back at it. But neither do i understand the huge overbet unless he is playing the same hand as me, or has made a mess of playing AA or 44 and is trying to get me off the J. Why over-bet with the K ? Surely a value bet would have made more sense to him ?

The best play would have been to flat call on the river, i dont think a call would have been the worst play either, I would have to suspect a split, but i wasnt calling that bet without a lock on the pot or something else to suggest otherwise (which i got over the next half and hour or so, he was overbetting bluffs, if this hand happened then i would have called)

How as ever i folded, its just the hand stuck in my mind a little. He didnt show

I like the 1/2 pot river bet tenbob. If he has less than Kings Full, he may call or he may fold an otherwise split pot. His reraise leaves little doubt as to his hand and there should be no question of calling. If you had checked and he had raised you would have wondered if he had a mere Jacks Full and might have been tempted to make an even more expensive call to pick off his steal and preserve the split. NH

Sorry. That was a typo. Here's what it should have read:

t1riel said:

I would fold here. I smell slowplay. He checked on the flop. He made a modest bet on the turn probably wanting to get rid of straight of flush chasers. Then, he made a good size bet hoping someone would call on the river. When you raised, he pounced with the all in. He either has the King or a Jack.

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Four Dogs said:

I like the 1/2 pot river bet tenbob. If he has less than Kings Full, he may call or he may fold an otherwise split pot. His reraise leaves little doubt as to his hand and there should be no question of calling. If you had checked and he had raised you would have wondered if he had a mere Jacks Full and might have been tempted to make an even more expensive call to pick off his steal and preserve the split. NH

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Either i didn´t understand your reply or you misread the hand. So before starting a new discussion about river bets, did you notice that tenbob had position and it was his opponent whom made the 1/2 pot river bet?

tenbob said:

But neither do i understand the huge overbet unless he is playing the same hand as me, or has made a mess of playing AA or 44 and is trying to get me off the J. Why over-bet with the K ? Surely a value bet would have made more sense to him ?

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I think he had the K, and to be honest i understand his overbet and i would probably have done the same. The reason is that when i make a river bet and someone reraises me, then when i reraise him generally i expect that my opponent is going to call or fold no matter what the amount of the bet is. What bet could your opponent have done as value bet? Reraising to $15? In that case i don´t think that a player would call that reraise and not an all in (i´m talking about general situations, especially at those limits).
Anyway i understand your point about thinking that he had a J. He came alive with that J on the turn and his overbet on the river could easily mean that he hadn´t a too much strong hand. But with that doubt and also thinking that you´re risking too much in hope of a split, i think that the best play here is to fold.

Jesus Lederer said:

Either i didn´t understand your reply or you misread the hand. So before starting a new discussion about river bets, did you notice that tenbob had position and it was his opponent whom made the 1/2 pot river bet?

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Er... I misread it. Guess I should have stayed in hiding. Bad river bet! Bad tenbob!

See this is where i would have made bet on the flop. You would find out right away what he had there without risking more. Either it would be a fold or call or raise. Each would give you an indication of his hand.

bet on the flop

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you mean raise on the turn right?
I really don't like betting into a multiway pot with a board like that. Sure if he had raised PF or if he had a heart draw, but it's a multiway limped hand.
Just my 2c