Rip me apart... bad play?

Okie dokie, let me hear it guys, rip me apart

pokerstars Game #8660912663: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2007/02/27 - 22:26:00 (ET)
Table 'Alrisha IV' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: DaneW ($53.70 in chips)
Seat 2: nazkev01 ($53.60 in chips)
Seat 3: glax100 ($26.45 in chips)
Seat 4: popdog60 ($16.05 in chips)
Seat 5: cwthelawnboy ($47.65 in chips)
Seat 6: Southwold ($51.60 in chips)
Southwold: posts small blind $0.25
DaneW: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to popdog60 [Kd Jd]
nazkev01: folds
glax100: calls $0.50
popdog60: calls $0.50
cwthelawnboy: folds
Southwold: folds
DaneW: checks
*** FLOP *** [Qd 8d Td]
DaneW: checks
glax100: checks
popdog60: checks
*** TURN *** [Qd 8d Td] [6h]
DaneW: bets $0.50
glax100: calls $0.50
popdog60: calls $0.50 <--- i probably should have raised this
*** RIVER *** [Qd 8d Td 6h] [Qh]
DaneW: bets $1
glax100: raises $24.45 to $25.45 and is all-in

popdog60: calls $15.05 and is all-in
DaneW: folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
glax100: shows [6s Qs] (a full house, Queens full of Sixes)
popdog60: shows [Kd Jd] (a flush, King high)
glax100 collected $32.65 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $34.35 | Rake $1.70
Board [Qd 8d Td 6h Qh]
Seat 1: DaneW (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 2: nazkev01 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: glax100 showed [6s Qs] and won ($32.65) with a full house, Queens full of Sixes
Seat 4: popdog60 showed [Kd Jd] and lost with a flush, King high
Seat 5: cwthelawnboy (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Southwold (small blind) folded before Flop

he was 2.83% on the flop.... and i didnt think he had a boat, because there was no protect raise on the flop

Pre-flop: raise it up to 5xBB with a limper
Flop: put out a standard continuation bet which will build value / take it down
Turn: raise pot
River: bet half pot and fold to push depending on reads on opponent

Well, you definately didnt play the hand that badly I dont think. When playing microlimits I will never slowplay a flush unless it is the nut flush, and even then most of the time people are calling stations so I usually bet it anyways. You may have been able to force him out of the pot on the flop, depending on how good the player was, but all in all I dont think it was that badly played, you cant put him on a full boat. If he had caught trips on the flop he probably would have bet it with the 3 diamonds out there.

Bombjack said:

Pre-flop: raise it up to 5xBB with a limper
Flop: put out a standard continuation bet which will build value / take it down
Turn: raise pot
River: bet half pot and fold to push depending on reads on opponent

Click to expand...

Really? Raise pre-flop? I'm not sure about this.

Bet out on the flop though - Ad is drawing to the nut flush. You want to push him out.

Turn & river - value bet

loopmeister said:

Really? Raise pre-flop?

Click to expand...

Yes. You take control of the hand. You don't give the blinds a free shot at the pot. You gain value with a good hand. You isolate the limper in position.

I'm not sure I am raising KJ from the MP myself. We are behind almost any hand that calls.

It's not MP, it's the cut-off seat. You're only really worried about a call from the button because you have position on any other player.

Im raising pre-flop almost every time here. I c-bet "most" flops, and pot on the turn. The river, very difficult to get away from it, but based on the way the hand played out, id fold.

I don't like it.

- I don't like that you didn't raise preflop.

- I don't like the weird flop slowplay. With the second nuts, you want to play a big pot. Why not use the fact that you limped in to make it look like you're just semi-bluff stealing? At some point, this pot needs to be built - start now.

- I don't like calling the turn. You still have the second nuts. Get some money in there.

- I don't like the river. As dbitel would say: If you're going to call a raise on the river, you need damn near the nuts to do it. With the board paired, your hand just turned to paper. I don't like a call.

(Now, I don't mean to rub it in (I'm a nice guy - really) so keep in mind that I'm saying this only for the sake of improving future discussion:

- I don't like the title of the thread. See https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-strategy-33/thread-titles-79012/

- I don't like that you posted the results. )

Cheers,
Fredrik

Limping behind an EP limper is okay here at a passive full table. This is 6-max though, and limping becomes reasonable much less often, as aggression is more rewarding in 6-max simply because more pots will be HU and the less players there are at the table, the less likely it is that anyone has anything worth shouting about.

You raise here to take the initiative with a moderately strong hand in position against someone who has shown no real strength thus far. At a very loose-passive table limping is okay, but as you haven't specified any table conditions I'm gonna assume it's just another standard $50NL table, in which case raise.

Flop/turn is horrible. I mean, it's really, really horrible.

You have the second nut flush. There's a nice, co-ordinated board up, and thus there's a distinct possibility that someone has either a made hand or a draw that they're willing to go with. Make them pay! There's also the "someone either has the Ad or they don't but slowplaying is bad either way" factor - if someone does have the Ad you're giving them a free shot to beat you, and if they don't then a diamond turn/river is going to absolutely kill your action.

You identify you "probably should have raised" the turn, but the flop is just as bad, if not worse. Get someone with the Ad to tag along without odds, get some money in with the second nuts on a board that's probably hit a lot of hands, get some money in before a card comes that kills your action!

As played, probably fold the river, although I don't hate calling. You should never have had to make the river decision though - there should either be so much in the pot that you have to call, or everyone should have folded already.

Oh, and don't sit with $16 at a $50NL table.

Bombjack said:

It's not MP, it's the cut-off seat. You're only really worried about a call from the button because you have position on any other player.

Click to expand...

Well look at that, it is!! Not sure WTF I was looking at.

I want to change my answer to 'definitely raise PF' and bet bet bet!!! If someone was holding a naked you are letting them draw to one of the few hands that will beat you.

You don't have the nuts so slowplaying is bad. When someone pushes after the board paired on a $50 table your flush probably isn't any good - it's tough, but lay it down. Especially when he put in $25 to take a $4 pot. Although in this particular hand I could easily see this as a 'please don't call this' bet since the betting was non existant until the river. If you would have bet all the way down he would know you had the flush and either folded or called you down and the push would have been a easy fold when the board paired.

Well you could call it MP if you want - you're 3rd to act, but at 6-max you can't really divide the table up in the same way as at 9 or 10 seaters. The important thing is how many players there are left to act behind you, so you should play cut-off in a similar way to how you would at a full table, which is "late position". Raising will buy you the button here which is another reason to raise, whereas if you limp, the button gets very good odds and position with ATC .

Popdog - if you're not comfortable raising this sort of hand and playing with the full buy-in, you should maybe move down a level. Do you have a $1000 bankroll?

Bombjack said:

Yes. You take control of the hand. You don't give the blinds a free shot at the pot. You gain value with a good hand. You isolate the limper in position.

Click to expand...

Okay, so raise is the right move then. But now a question: If there were 2 limpers, do you still raise?

loopmeister said:

Okay, so raise is the right move then. But now a question: If there were 2 limpers, do you still raise?

Click to expand...

Yes, definitely. Raise more. You likely have the best hand. With lower suited cards and small pairs I might limp with two other limpers, because they're strong multi-way hands when they do hit. Although I'd often raise those as well, so you can get the pot heads-up and have a lot of fold equity if your opponent misses the flop and you c-bet.

Bet your hand. Don't be afraid of scaring them off. At these limits there are plenty of fish who'll pay you off.

Bombjack said:

Yes, definitely. Raise more. You likely have the best hand. With lower suited cards and small pairs I might limp with two other limpers, because they're strong multi-way hands when they do hit. Although I'd often raise those as well, so you can get the pot heads-up and have a lot of fold equity if your opponent misses the flop and you c-bet.

Click to expand...

The reason I bring this up is because it seems to go against what Harrington calls the Gap Concept. Earlier-calling players are supposed to have stronger hands, (implying you likely DON'T have the best hand) so if you're calling you should have better-than-minimum.

In a very similar scenario, he recommends calling with KJs only if the limper is loose (Vol I, pg 89). The only difference was that this was a full table, and this is 6-handed. With a couple of limpers when you're on the button he recommends a call, but still no mention of a raise.

Further comments?

The Gap concept plays a much larger role in tournaments than it does in deep cash games. In a cash game you can afford to risk your own stack if you have a better-than-average chance of taking someone else's. In a tournament, you play much more defense.

Thanks FP, DM, BJ et al. This has been a stimulating thread. If I'm reading between the lines here, I can sum everything up into a more general principle:

- In cash games, and in LP, you should seldom limp. Raise (because you can isolate + will be in position) or just fold.

This is interesting, because I've been using what I suppose you'd call "tournament strategy" in cash games, and while I haven't been losing, my hourly rate is a little on the thin side. (I've been doing pretty well in tourneys lately though).

Yeah. "Mostly" is the keyword here, though. With hands that have some highcard strength (QJo, K9), but not monster strength (small pocket pairs, medium suited connectors) raising is usually better if you're going to play them. You don't want to play a big multiway pot with these hands, but instead you'll be happy to just take it down then and there. Just calling with pocket deuces on the button after two others have limped is fine, IMO.

Beat: This is one of the most horrible hands i think i've ever seen. Its misplayed on every street......including preflop!

Brag: This post has just about the best advice I've read on CC