Repeating AK situation

zachvac

zachvac

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Repeating AK situation [100nl FR]

Villain is decent but not great reg.

poker stars, $0.50/$1 PL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players

Hero (UTG+1): $111.85 (111.9 bb)
MP1: $59 (59 bb)
MP2: $152.90 (152.9 bb)
MP3: $100 (100 bb)
CO: $59.50 (59.5 bb)
BTN: $202.50 (202.5 bb)
SB: $140.20 (140.2 bb)
BB: $77.15 (77.2 bb)
UTG: $42.50 (42.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG+1 with K
spade.gif
A
club.gif

UTG folds, Hero raises to $3.50, 2 folds, MP3 calls $3.50, CO folds, BTN calls $3.50, SB calls $3, BB calls $2.50

Flop: ($17.50) 5
club.gif
A
diamond.gif
4
spade.gif
(5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $11, MP3 folds, BTN calls $11, SB folds, BB folds

Turn: ($39.50) Q
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $22, Hero calls $22

River: ($83.50) 2
club.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $25, BTN raises to $83, Hero folds

Results: $133.50 pot ($3 rake)
BTN mucked and won $130.50 ($69 net)

I don't bet turn because I'm not really worried about free cards, don't expect worse aces to call turn and river, but expect to be ahead. Basically turn betting range I expect to be Ax/sets/54/air. So river I basically block bet for value against worse aces who may call when I make such an odd play and for good odds and then obviously expect them to raise their nut hands and I can fold.

It just sucks folding here and I'm not sure if this is an optimal line. General read is basically competent thinking player who's not gonna go crazy with TP in multiway pot but isn't exactly 100% solid.

Also how does situation change if we're HU instead?
 
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baudib1

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I think you played it well, I don't know what you beat.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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I think you played it well, I don't know what you beat.

Sorry to clarify I'm not looking for just the river fold, I'd like some advice on my entire line. Is it really profitable to bet the river? To call the turn? Should I just bet/fold turn? Personally I think the river fold is pretty trivial as given read I don't expect him to get fancy and see that I'm blocking bet river and jam air (and jamming a weak A would be pretty idiotic here) especially given I could be doing this with a set just to get value because I'm afraid he'll check behind (personally I don't actually do that a lot, but in general people like to do that).
 
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baudib1

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Sorry, I suck at poker. But I assume since you have a semidecent read on him he must have your range whittled down pretty good here.

Yeah, maybe B/F the turn is better line because he's definitely raising you there and you save $25. A raise on the turn will definitely say "I have AK beat."
 
skoldpadda

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I think this is probably villain-dependent. His turn bet does not seem particularly strong or meaningful to me. Also, it's difficult to put a 2 or 3 in his range, so the river is essentially a blank.

I would play it the same except check/call the river. A lot of hands like AQ, AA, QQ that beat you will typically 3 bet pre-flop (maybe not AQ since you're UTG+1). The only hands I'd be worried about would be the other flopped sets. The majority of his range is behind you on the river.
 
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baudib1

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If villain is taking this line with AJ- he is godawful. He's representing such a narrow range and the flop is so dry it's hard to believe someone who is merely decent could be doing this with air. He has 55, 44, or AQ (and I think AQ is the least likely) here 99% of the time, I believe. or maybe As3s? but AK can't be good.
 
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zachvac

zachvac

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@Skold

As to villain-dependent, I'm talking about the generic situation but mostly somewhat TAG players who aren't necessarily that good or imaginative but definitely have a brain, know how to fold top pair, not stack gutshots, etc. I don't expect them to be good enough to see the river blocker as an opportunity to bluff after floating two.

Basically my logic for checking turn is that if I bet turn a lot of the hands I beat (Ax basically) fold to the second barrel. I just don't see AJ/AT calling 2 streets in a multi-way pot when I raised preflop from EP. I like to take the bet-check-bet line a lot with hands like this where I think I can only get 2 streets of value. It's a little better in position because it induces a lot more river bluffs that I can then just flat call for the same pot size as a turn bet but against a weaker range or value-bet river and expect to be looked up light because they see turn check and think "omg he checked he's weak".

But of course it's tougher to play oop, and this is a good example.

Also note that if I check river I probably fold to a bet. My biggest reason for not checking turn was because I think he checks back too many hands I beat. I'm like 99% sure I'm never good here after the raise all-in. Maybe I'm just a nit but I insta-folded that and didn't think twice there. It's just annoying putting that much money in with TPTK in a multiway pot to fold like that. idk whether the bet/fold turn line is better here (which I think would have to be followed by check/fold river) or whether it folds out too many hands I have beat.
 
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baudib1

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yeah, in practice I'd probably c/c the river and that's clearly wrong.
 
Richyl2008

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I like bet/fold on the turn better in this hand. I think you can eliminate all 2pair+ hands in your range once you ch/call that turn for the most part . Imo betting keeps your range slightly wider and gives you a clearer plan of action for the rest of the hand. The downside is you may not get value from bluffs/worse hands this way, but your less likely to get bluffed off the best hand than if you decide to check/call the turn unless your willing to call a river bet, since your line shows weakness and I'm not sure I'm willing to do that in a 5way multiway pot
 
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baudib1

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I think our hand is pretty much face-up but it's not like we're showing weakness. We're an EP raiser who bet into five people on the flop; we're making some kind of value bet on the river. The only two-pair combination in our range is AQ and...I assume we're not raising 55/44 in EP too often...yeah, I think villain can put us pretty precisely on a hand but again, he doesn't seem to be imaginative enough to bluff two streets in a big pot. He has 55/44 and hopes we have AQ.
 
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bw07507

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I assume we're not raising 55/44 in EP too often
That would be a wrong assumption I think. I know I open any pair from any position and I think zach does too, so 55 and 44 are in his range here.

As for the hand:

I think the way you played it is fine and I also think bet/folding the turn is also fine. Against a good opponent, your river bet is an obvious blocking bet and it will be exploited if you always do this, but I think given your read on villain that this is a good way to play the hand.
 
F Paulsson

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I think I take this line most of the time. I agree with your thought process every step of the way, and donking the river because weaker aces will check behind often, and as a way of block betting (even AQ might be afraid to raise with four to a straight on the board, although it's difficult for you to represent deuces) is good. If I vary my play at some point, it's in whether or not I c-bet the flop, but that's a play better suited for being heads-up. But when it's so many players to the flop, I think c-betting is near mandatory.
 
BelgoSuisse

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I like the line in general, i'm just not sure about the bet sizing on the river. Do you ever value bet this small or can i just bluff raise you every time you do it because it's always planned as a bet/fold?
 
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