Quick hand analysis

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mastahbates

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Hi all,

I had a go at 5NL last night and thought I had the best hand but hit some, what I would consider, bad luck. I was hoping to get some validation that calling all-in was the best maneuver.

Blinds $0.02/0.05
Hero dealt K5d
Villain (MP) - $13.58 raises 15c
Hero (BB) - $4.04 calls 10c
Flop: 36Jd
Villain raises $13.58
Hero ??

Hero calls $4.04
Villain shows Ad6c
Turn: 8d
River: Jc
Villain wins: $17.62
 
TimovieMan

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Fold preflop.

As played, I think it was very much correct. People do weird things on monotone flops, and you have the second-nuts.

It would be crazy if he flopped the nuts and just shoved, folding out most hands and not getting any value.
This is either the nut flush draw or a scared made hand that wants you to fold. You beat both, but one can suck out on you. Only 7 cards help it, though. You're WAY ahead.
 
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M

mastahbates

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Fold preflop.

As played, I think it was very much correct. People do weird things on monotone flops, and you have the second-nuts.

It would be crazy if he flopped the nuts and just shoved, folding out most hands and not getting any value.
This is either the nut flush draw or a scared made hand that wants you to fold. You beat both, but one can suck out on you. Only 6 cards help it, though. You're WAY ahead.

So just an unlucky turn card?
 
TimovieMan

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So just an unlucky turn card?
I'd say so, yeah. Really, the nuts shouldn't be doing this, so you should've been ahead always.

You got it in as a 68.7% favourite. He was going to suckout often, though, but that shouldn't matter - this is a long run game and you got it in good.

(He had 7 outs instead of 6, btw, and some runner-runner boat outs as well - but some of his spade outs would have given you a straight flush re-suckout as well)
 
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mastahbates

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I'd say so, yeah. Really, the nuts shouldn't be doing this, so you should've been ahead always.

You got it in as a 68.7% favourite. He was going to suckout often, though, but that shouldn't matter - this is a long run game and you got it in good.

(He had 7 outs instead of 6, btw, and some runner-runner boat outs as well - but some of his spade outs would have given you a straight flush re-suckout as well)

It is reassuring someone else sees it that way. I was playing 5NL where one buy-in is half my bankroll (normally I am really regimented to my BRM but thought I would give it a shot) so I was really annoyed I did not double up here. I shan't let it get to me seeing as I was ahead on the flop.
 
TimovieMan

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It is reassuring someone else sees it that way. I was playing 5NL where one buy-in is half my bankroll (normally I am really regimented to my BRM but thought I would give it a shot) so I was really annoyed I did not double up here. I shan't let it get to me seeing as I was ahead on the flop.
Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.

If your roll is 10$, you're underrolled for NL2 and shouldn't even be considering NL5!!!


Also, while I agree with the flop call, I still say you should fold preflop. You'll be out-of-position with a weak hand that'll hardly ever flop anything good, and where your top pair is going to be dominated often vs an MP open-raise.
FYI, flopping a flush like you did is a 1 in 119 occurrence. Hardly worth playing a weak suited hand for.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Fold preflop. I feel like a broken record, playing thsee same words over and over in different threads.

As played, yes call. We flopped the 2nd nuts. V rarely just jams the flop here with the nuts (if ever).


However, fold pre would have saved you from this nasty cooler. K-5dd is a terrible hand.


Edit: Bankroll management. With roll, you should be playing lowest game you can find, whether it's a tiny SNG or cash game.
 
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mastahbates

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Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.

If your roll is 10$, you're underrolled for NL2 and shouldn't even be considering NL5!!!


Also, while I agree with the flop call, I still say you should fold preflop. You'll be out-of-position with a weak hand that'll hardly ever flop anything good, and where your top pair is going to be dominated often vs an MP open-raise.
FYI, flopping a flush like you did is a 1 in 119 occurrence. Hardly worth playing a weak suited hand for.

Fold preflop. I feel like a broken record, playing thsee same words over and over in different threads.

As played, yes call. We flopped the 2nd nuts. V rarely just jams the flop here with the nuts (if ever).


However, fold pre would have saved you from this nasty cooler. K-5dd is a terrible hand.


Edit: Bankroll management. With roll, you should be playing lowest game you can find, whether it's a tiny SNG or cash game.

Completely agree with you both. It is going to take me some time to rebuild from this but wanted to see if there was any difference between the two levels (i.e not raising all-in with Ax) and from this experience I now know that there is not! Luckily, I am more than one site, where I played this game I will primarily use for SNGs but I have an account on another site where 4NL (lowest stake there) is relatively soft and I can get at least 1 buy-in per hour there.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Completely agree with you both. It is going to take me some time to rebuild from this but wanted to see if there was any difference between the two levels (i.e not raising all-in with Ax) and from this experience I now know that there is not! Luckily, I am more than one site, where I played this game I will primarily use for SNGs but I have an account on another site where 4NL (lowest stake there) is relatively soft and I can get at least 1 buy-in per hour there.

Bolded section above:

Getting one buy in per hour is not realistic, and not the correct way of thinking. I will explain.

Even if you played perfect poker, all the time, we can't expect results. All we can control is our decisions. We can't control what cards fall, what our opponents do, etc.

In this thread, in this one hand, you have demonstrated a glaring problem in your decision making. Something as simple as preflop starting hand selection - which is auto pilot for strong players - is something you need to work on.



My advice to you would be this:

Google something like "starting hand selection for no limit holdem". Read all you can. Study multiple sources of information. Use this to tighten up your hand selection.

You must have discipline. You can't be playing rags out of position. You can't really expect to win, if you aren't even playing correct poker.


But if you do play a pretty good strategy, even then we can't expect to just print money like clock-work. You still have to deal with variance. All you can do is make the best decision possible. That's the only thing you can control. Anything else, is up to the poker gods, so to speak.
 
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Jreece18

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Fold fold fold pre! I'd call the shove, but I don't understand what's going on with a lot of players on here playing trash (and suited trash)? Is it something to do with TV play? The issue here is you're not even playing trash well. Playing K5s with initative in position, you could maybe argue for. But calling on the blinds with this hand is just bad. If you wanna play speculative hands, play the from the button or Co, not from the blinds. Position is so important and this imo shows you still don't put enough importance in it. A tip that'll just massively improve your game is pay more attention to position - value it more than you think it should be valued, because you're undervaluing it right now.

And definitely change BRM. Deposit so your balance is $50 and stay at 2nl until you have 20ish for 5nl. It's long and slow, but its a way to not go broke. If you really want to jump in to 5nl, deposit $100. $10 should not even be considering a bankroll, it should be considered gambling.
 
BogdanStark

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Obviously, he had something around this: AQo+, QQ+
Because if he had Ace high flush he would check 100%
 
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mastahbates

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Bolded section above:

Getting one buy in per hour is not realistic, and not the correct way of thinking. I will explain.

Even if you played perfect poker, all the time, we can't expect results. All we can control is our decisions. We can't control what cards fall, what our opponents do, etc.

In this thread, in this one hand, you have demonstrated a glaring problem in your decision making. Something as simple as preflop starting hand selection - which is auto pilot for strong players - is something you need to work on.



My advice to you would be this:

Google something like "starting hand selection for no limit holdem". Read all you can. Study multiple sources of information. Use this to tighten up your hand selection.

You must have discipline. You can't be playing rags out of position. You can't really expect to win, if you aren't even playing correct poker.


But if you do play a pretty good strategy, even then we can't expect to just print money like clock-work. You still have to deal with variance. All you can do is make the best decision possible. That's the only thing you can control. Anything else, is up to the poker gods, so to speak.

Fold fold fold pre! I'd call the shove, but I don't understand what's going on with a lot of players on here playing trash (and suited trash)? Is it something to do with TV play? The issue here is you're not even playing trash well. Playing K5s with initative in position, you could maybe argue for. But calling on the blinds with this hand is just bad. If you wanna play speculative hands, play the from the button or Co, not from the blinds. Position is so important and this imo shows you still don't put enough importance in it. A tip that'll just massively improve your game is pay more attention to position - value it more than you think it should be valued, because you're undervaluing it right now.

And definitely change BRM. Deposit so your balance is $50 and stay at 2nl until you have 20ish for 5nl. It's long and slow, but its a way to not go broke. If you really want to jump in to 5nl, deposit $100. $10 should not even be considering a bankroll, it should be considered gambling.

Obviously, he had something around this: AQo+, QQ+
Because if he had Ace high flush he would check 100%

I cannot thank you all enough for not trolling but giving constructive criticism to my play. I think after the comments, pre flop play and positional hands is, as stated in a previous post, a glaring weakness to me and I have already begun reading up on it.

Do you guys think that watching pros play on streams is a bad way to "learn"? I mean I love watching poker as much as I do watching other sports but obviously I can sit here and play poker but I cannot go out and drive a F1 car therefore their "bad plays" could be leaking in to my style of play?

I would normally associate myself as being a tight ABC player by only playing QQ or higher but I thought because money was already in the pot in the form of blinds, I should call the extra big blind and see what I get on the flop - is this a really bad way of looking at it?
 
Beanfacekilla

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I cannot thank you all enough for not trolling but giving constructive criticism to my play. I think after the comments, pre flop play and positional hands is, as stated in a previous post, a glaring weakness to me and I have already begun reading up on it.

Do you guys think that watching pros play on streams is a bad way to "learn"? I mean I love watching poker as much as I do watching other sports but obviously I can sit here and play poker but I cannot go out and drive a F1 car therefore their "bad plays" could be leaking in to my style of play?

I would normally associate myself as being a tight ABC player by only playing QQ or higher but I thought because money was already in the pot in the form of blinds, I should call the extra big blind and see what I get on the flop - is this a really bad way of looking at it?


Watching pros on TV should be for entertainment only. You can learn some, but you have to realize these guys are pros. They aren't playing micros. They are good enough to play a wide range, and the game is different. They probably choose to be tricky to keep fellow pros guessing. The stuff they do isn't applicable to the games you are playing.

It doesn't matter that you're already invested when you are in the blinds. You must play tight. It's inevitable that you will lose from the blinds. Focus on losing the least.
 
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mastahbates

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I have literally taken all your comments on board and wondered if feedback on my research so far to become more ABC and more TAG at the table is on point. Here are some of my notes thus far:

Code:
UTG
Raise with...
AA-TT
AK-AQ

Blinds
If someone has called, raise with...
88+ or AJ+
call with...
87s+ or KTs+
re-raise with...
QQ+ or AK

MP
avoid limping
raise with...
77+, AJo, TQs+
if someone has raised, call with...
99+, TQs+, 89s+
re-raise with...
TT+, AQo+

LP
open with...
22+, Axs+, A7o+, KTo+, 45s+
no calling
if someone has called, raise with...
TT+, AJo+
if someone has called, call with...
22+, Q9s+, Axs+, 45s+
if someone has raised, re-raise with...
TT+, AQ+
if someone has raised, call with...
77+, 45s+

Raised 3x BB + 1BB per caller
 
Beanfacekilla

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Someone else with some 6-max experience will have to look at that. Wouldn't be raising LP with 2-2 through 6-6. We could just take the opportunity to limp, and keep other players in, so we can set-mine. But these are just suggestions. I am not great at 6-max stuff.
 
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mastahbates

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Someone else with some 6-max experience will have to look at that. Wouldn't be raising LP with 2-2 through 6-6. We could just take the opportunity to limp, and keep other players in, so we can set-mine. But these are just suggestions. I am not great at 6-max stuff.

So you would say it would be prudent to make an exception to the "no calling" comment but to only call with small pairs?
 
Beanfacekilla

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So you would say it would be prudent to make an exception to the "no calling" comment but to only call with small pairs?


Let's wait until someone else pops in here. 6-max is not my specialty.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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Stop calling junk pre just because its sooted.

Call flop. Obv.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I have literally taken all your comments on board and wondered if feedback on my research so far to become more ABC and more TAG at the table is on point. Here are some of my notes thus far:

Code:
UTG
Raise with...
AA-TT
AK-AQ

Blinds
If someone has called, raise with...
88+ or AJ+
call with...
87s+ or KTs+
re-raise with...
QQ+ or AK

MP
avoid limping
raise with...
77+, AJo, TQs+
if someone has raised, call with...
99+, TQs+, 89s+
re-raise with...
TT+, AQo+

LP
open with...
22+, Axs+, A7o+, KTo+, 45s+
no calling
if someone has called, raise with...
TT+, AJo+
if someone has called, call with...
22+, Q9s+, Axs+, 45s+
if someone has raised, re-raise with...
TT+, AQ+
if someone has raised, call with...
77+, 45s+

Raised 3x BB + 1BB per caller

Maybe create a new thread? Ask for help with starting hand selection chart or something.
 
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Jreece18

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Seems slightly too tight, but looks like a decent place to start. Keep in mind that EP opens are more respectable than button opens. Check for att to steal %, etc. There are times you can 3bet junk facing a steal with a % of 60. Leave that for the moment, just watch to see which players are positionally aware (vpip/pfr varies greatly from EP to LP)
 
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