QQ vs very aggressive opponent..what turn line should I take after an ace hits?

Tygran

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Villain is extremely aggressive... raising all sorts of crap preflop so his raise and call don't mean much. his stats were 38/35/7.5

Table 'Uppsala' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: stationbc ($24.65 in chips)
Seat 2: Ignatius37 ($7.40 in chips)
Seat 3: Tygran37 ($54.15 in chips)
Seat 4: Sohlkind ($24.60 in chips)
Seat 5: silge ($23.90 in chips)
Seat 6: WooLeeJung ($24.10 in chips)
Seat 7: racingstones ($12.65 in chips)
Seat 8: Tuwei168 ($23.40 in chips)
Seat 9: toxicaveng79 ($28.20 in chips)
Sohlkind: posts small blind $0.10
silge: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Tygran37 [Qs Qh]
WooLeeJung: folds
racingstones: calls $0.25
Tuwei168: folds
toxicaveng79: raises $1 to $1.25
stationbc: folds
Ignatius37: folds
Ignatius37 leaves the table
Tygran37: raises $1.75 to $3
Sohlkind: folds
silge: folds
racingstones: folds
toxicaveng79: calls $1.75
*** FLOP *** [5h 9c 3d]
toxicaveng79: checks
Tygran37: bets $5.50
toxicaveng79: calls $5.50
*** TURN *** [5h 9c 3d] A♦
toxicaveng79: checks
daiwi joins the table at seat #2
Tygran37: ????
 
WVHillbilly

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Check behind on the turn and call his river bet (check behind if checked to on the river but with his AF I don't think that's likely). If you bet the turn he only calls with hands we are behind, but he may feel that he can buy the pot with a bet on the river with a hand that we beat.
 
Munchrs

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wa/wb on the turn, agree with billy, check behind and call or value bet the river. Villian appear to be pretty stupid so he probably bets if he hit the ace and you checked behind on the turn, if he checks twice I definately like a value bet.
 
KerouacsDog

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Villain is extremely aggressive... raising all sorts of crap preflop so his raise and call don't mean much. his stats were 38/35/7.5
no idea what those stats are, dont have PT, but from your statement he's loose/aggresive.
Im trying to work out ranges, so this guy has a big range, for me.
Im putting this guy on a low pocket pair, not 77, 99, or 33, or KQ/QJ/A-rag etc. He's bet PF with his hand, you've raised him(rightly), and he's thought, ok, i can call, and set-mine. The flops come up, he's checked, as you were the reraiser PF to see what you're going to do. You bet, he's thinking his pair/KQ/QJ/A-rag might be good here, so he's called. Turn is an Ace, and for me I think it's a scare card for him, as he's put you on high pair or AK. You have to bet here, for information, your QQ could still be good. If he calls, he probably has an Ace rag, or thinks his PP is still good. Thats why you HAVE to bet the turn, for information. Dont get to the river without having some clue as to where you are in the hand.
Probably all wrong!
 
WVHillbilly

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no idea what those stats are, dont have Poker Tracker, but from your statement he's loose/aggresive.
Im trying to work out ranges, so this guy has a big range, for me.
Im putting this guy on a low pocket pair, not 77, 99, or 33, or KQ/QJ/A-rag etc. He's bet PF with his hand, you've raised him(rightly), and he's thought, ok, i can call, and set-mine. The flops come up, he's checked, as you were the reraiser PF to see what you're going to do. You bet, he's thinking his pair/KQ/QJ/A-rag might be good here, so he's called. Turn is an Ace, and for me I think it's a scare card for him, as he's put you on high pair or AK. You have to bet here, for information, your QQ could still be good. If he calls, he probably has an Ace rag, or thinks his PP is still good. Thats why you HAVE to bet the turn, for information. Dont get to the river without having some clue as to where you are in the hand.
Probably all wrong!

We know exactly where we are; We have 2nd pair with an Ace on the board with only 1 street of betting left if we do the smart thing and check behind on the turn. If we bet here how much? There is ~$17 in the pot at the moment so we need to bet at least $12 to get the information you seek. If we bet $12 our villain only has $8 left behind so if he pushes are we going to fold for $8 in a ~$40 pot or call when we're likely way behind? Not a great choice IMO.

Now if we don't bet the turn we widen his river betting range enough (because he thinks, correctly so, we're afraid of the Ace on board) so that calling his river bet makes sense and if he does have an Ace we limit our loss to his bet not his full stack.
 
Tygran

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fwiw prior to this hand i've seen him raise K9o and 68s... winning one when he rivered 2 pair and losing the other when the draw didn't come in... so I think his range is insanely wide.. Any ace, any king, any pair and almost literally any suited or one gap connectors from 23 on up. (that's his preflop range anyway)
 
KerouacsDog

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WV, valid points, Im new to ring.
Here's my move, maybe wrong, but anyway:
I bet $6 on the turn, a 3rd roughly of his stack, if he calls then we see the river and hope a Q hits, or our QQ is good. If he raises then he has us beat, and puts us in a tight spot. If he folds, we win. IMO, we have to attack LAGs on every street if we have overpair(up to turn anyway), i still think A is a scare card for him, LAGs love betting every street, if he check-raises so be it, we know where we are right there.
 
Tygran

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WV, valid points, Im new to ring.
Here's my move, maybe wrong, but anyway:
I bet $6 on the turn, a 3rd roughly of his stack, if he calls then we see the river and hope a Q hits, or our QQ is good. If he raises then he has us beat, and puts us in a tight spot. If he folds, we win. IMO, we have to attack LAGs on every street if we have overpair(up to turn anyway), i still think A is a scare card for him, LAGs love betting every street, if he check-raises so be it, we know where we are right there.

I appreciate the feedback but I tend to agree with WV on this one.

betting into a lag for the sole purpose of "seeing where we stand" is usually not a great idea. we are also scarily close to the pot commitment point here.

I also don't think LAGs like this really give us alot of information when they are just flat calling. All it usually means is I have something*. Sure everyone will slowplay sometimes but some do it less than others and this type seems to do it the least of all.

The biggest problem is that I think with the raise->call line he took pre that decent aces *could* be in his range but certainly don't make up the majority of his likely hands.


* - for small values of "something" (aka weak top pair, 2nd/3rd pair, or gutshot draws and overcards in this case)
 
WVHillbilly

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What is our goal when we bet $6? Are we trying to get him to fold a hand that beats us? Not happening. Are we trying to get him to fold a hand that we beat? Why would we want him to do that?

What if our opponent holds say TT / JJ? If we bet $6 he'll do 1 of 3 things, fold (so he's not making a mistake), call (least likely and we still know nothing), or see our little bet as weak and raise (and he forces us to fold the best hand). Basically all bad outcomes for us.
 
KerouacsDog

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like i said, i dont play ring tables, so im learning from this, and feel that my play would have been wrong, but it's still my play.
Tygran, can we have the outcome yet?
 
Munchrs

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no outcome yet.

Why do you ever bet for information. Bet to get fold equity or value, if you dont have enough information to know where your at then check or fold.

Also i think betting the turn is absolutely horrible, it does not give you 'information', what if your turn bet gets cold caled, what have you gained info wise?? That hes a donk that calls alot and plays too loose, we already new that. I still think when the Ace peels the turn this is standard wa/wb and we should be checking behind. Why do we check behind? 1. because if villian has hit the ace the line he is most likely to take is c/r(my expierence at 25nl, they like to slowplay), 2. we dont want to let him c/r and put us to a much tougher decision as folding would be hard because of his looseness and calling is also hard because of the Ace, and 3. If we check behind we keep the pot medium sized with our now 2nd pair which is, relative to this villian, a medium strength hand.
 
ajrobin

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What happens if we check behind on the turn and villian pushes on the river? Is he expoliting signs of weakness (which he could well be doing considering his aggresivness) or does he reall have the ace. Just curious as to how people would play a shove on the river as it seems to be a situation i find myself in at least once a session and im usually folding (could be a leak in my game)
 
dsvw56

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Raise more pre-flop. $3.75 should be the bare minimum to raise to here, and I'd raise to something like $4.50.
 
zachvac

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WV, valid points, Im new to ring.
Here's my move, maybe wrong, but anyway:
I bet $6 on the turn, a 3rd roughly of his stack, if he calls then we see the river and hope a Q hits, or our QQ is good. If he raises then he has us beat, and puts us in a tight spot. If he folds, we win. IMO, we have to attack LAGs on every street if we have overpair(up to turn anyway), i still think A is a scare card for him, LAGs love betting every street, if he check-raises so be it, we know where we are right there.

ok not trying to be mean here at all but betting turn here is absolutely terrible, especially if the logic is that we're betting for information. Poker is a game of money, our goal is to win the most of it that we can. We want to maximize our ev at every step, not maximize our information. The information we have now is that he has an extremely wide range. We do not want to pay our stack to get the information we need. I could easily see someone that aggressive check-raising all-in with air here because our weak ($6 into a $17 pot is extremely weak) bet looks like the A scared us and we want to bet something scary and still be able to get away from the hand if raised (which is exactly the case here).

We need to think about the reasons we bet. There are two valid reasons, one is fold equity, getting better hands to fold or else hands that have significant outs against us to fold, and the other is getting worse hands to call. The one exception is if we're deep and the pot is small we can bet for deception, for example we raise 88 preflop, we're not hoping for a fold, and we're probably at best flippins with a hand that calls us. But the raise allows us to get paid off if an 8 hits.

Anyway, this raise does none of this. If they hit an ace they'll call or raise, anything worse is most likely folding to a reasonably sized bet or else raising as a bluff. Also as mentioned above, checking behind has the added benefit of getting river bluffs as well as being able to value bet and get calls from TT-JJ and 9x hands.
 
KerouacsDog

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As I say, Im new to ring, so ur not being mean, zach, ur educating me., Im learning a lot from just this one hand.
 
WVHillbilly

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Ok most here recommend checking behind on the turn (I think KD probably sees that it the right play as well just not what he would have done before reading this thread). What's your play if checked to on the river? I would check behind again but Munchrs (lol I said butt munchers) advocates a value bet if checked to on the river. What's your play?
 
Tygran

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Too lazy to go copy paste this:

I checked behind the turn.

River was the Js

Villain bet out $10

The pot at this point was ~$17.35 ($27.35 factoring in his bet)

what do you do?
 
KerouacsDog

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Ok most here recommend checking behind on the turn (I think KD probably sees that it the right play as well just not what he would have done before reading this thread). What's your play if checked to on the river? I would check behind again but Munchrs (lol I said butt munchers) advocates a value bet if checked to on the river. What's your play?
yep, still learning, i guess. still might have done my play though, even if it is wrong.
Too lazy to go copy paste this:

I checked behind the turn.

River was the Js

Villain bet out $10

The pot at this point was ~$17.35 ($27.35 factoring in his bet)

what do you do?
so his range could now include JJ, or J-something, maybe AJ?
 
Tygran

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what would you put his range on?

remember this guy is borderline insane.

I'd be absolutely shocked to see AJ though.. possible sure..but very unlikely
 
KerouacsDog

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Tygran, i have no experience with ranges, just starting to learnt them lately, so I'll go with my original guess: low pocket pair, not 77, 99, or 33, or KQ/QJ/A-rag etc. And maybe discount KQ/QJ, as you have 2. If he's insane, then AJ is a possiblity, or maybe J-something, JT? I havent a clue, bud.
 
ChuckTs

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yep, standard wa/wb on the turn, our goal is to get to showdown.

KD - read up on the wa/wb theory, it should be pretty eye-opening for you.

As played it's an easy call on the river against this guy. Even if he overbet the pot (which is what I thought he did at first) I'd probably still look him up.

And ya, raise more pf - that's something (iirc) that you've got a habit of, 3betting too small.
 
WVHillbilly

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Well he raised and called a 3bet preflop so we have to narrow his range somewhat (say he'll do that with the top 40% of his raising range). Against that range (14%) we have almost 50% equity so we're defiantly calling his $10 bet. Only if you think he calls a 3bet with less that 20% of his raising range do we not have enough equity to call. From the sounds of it you don't think his 3bet calling range is anywhere near that small, so we call.
 
KerouacsDog

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^^^way over my head.............
 
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