QQ - Preflop decision time vs TAG/unknown

Villian here has been playing 11.5/5.8/4. Over a smallish sample of 50 hands so unsure what we make of his stats. He was stacked a few hands before this when his flopped set ran into a flopped straight.

pokerstars Game #15263865494: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2008/02/13 - 16:04:24 (ET)
Table 'Savo III' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: MoleyandClub ($46.30 in chips)
Seat 2: okutai ($102.50 in chips)
Seat 3: alamarra ($95.15 in chips)
Seat 4: FelkerPoker ($125.20 in chips)
Seat 5: tenbob ($126.25 in chips)
Seat 6: japo07 ($65.05 in chips)
Seat 7: Sixy ($98.50 in chips)
Seat 9: geauxgill ($100.55 in chips)
MoleyandClub: posts small blind $0.50
okutai: posts big blind $1
LuckyLuke30: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tenbob [Qh Qd]
alamarra: raises $3 to $4
FelkerPoker: folds
tenbob: raises $7 to $11
japo07: folds
Sixy: folds
geauxgill: folds
MoleyandClub: folds
okutai: folds
alamarra: raises $25 to $36
tenbob: ?????????

Push or fold. I vote fold.
(based on my vast ring experience <-- sarcasm)

Very strong line especially for those limited VPIP/PFR numbers. I can't imagine what you beat here. I'm at work so can't run pokerstove, but for 11.5%, me no likey.

Your stats/image?

Also, why the smallish 3-bet?

ChuckTs said:

Your stats/image?

Also, why the smallish 3-bet?

Click to expand...

Was playing an AA hand on another table and for some reason thought he bet $3. Im playing 15/8/3.

11.5% VP$IP out of 50 hands = He's played only 6 out of 50. Based on this, I would fold. BUT, if you read him as still tilting from before or over-protecting AK, then call. You also want to go to the 3rd degree of thinking to figure out how he reads you and what he thinks you have.

tenbob said:

Dealt to tenbob [Qh Qd]
alamarra: raises $3 to $4
FelkerPoker: folds
tenbob: raises $7 to $11
japo07: folds
Sixy: folds
geauxgill: folds
MoleyandClub: folds
okutai: folds
alamarra: raises $25 to $36
tenbob: ?????????

Click to expand...

I said "call" in Aliengenius QQ thread earlier, where it was a simple all in push. This is the QQ hand that I fold - he's said "big hand" you said "bigger", he said "nope, i'm bigger". He's happy to give you the opportunity to go over the top of him - looks like QQ, KK or AA, and you've got QQ.

Why is everybody so reliant on Pokertracker stats nowadays? What's wrong with a fair battle of wits against an opponent?

Because the PT stats help confirm the image and that he's not a spewy LAG doing this with AJ or 55.

My wits told me to buy pokertracker

(at least half joking)

fold. this is rarely not AA/KK. he's a nit 4betting another tight player from UTG at full ring. it doesn't get much stronger than that

So this is rarely AK not wanting to play OOP? That'd be my question, plus Harrington's 10% bluffing rule.

i mean it could be AK, especially if he's pissed from getting stacked earlier, i just think AA or KK are more likely. the thing is he's 11.5/5.8 which suggests he just calls about as much as he raises and likely doesn't understand the importance of using aggression to counteract positional disadvantage. and even if he did, this is probably a bad spot to be 4betting AK anyway

You guys have already covered it all pretty well...

He's obviously tight. And even if he's tilting I doubt he's doing this with any hand you really want to see. If he has not done anything that looked tilty (is that a word?) since he got stacked then I doubt you can call on the theory he's still upset from the loss. I very seriously doubt he has anything besides QQ/KK/AA/AK. Fold.

I would put the odds on AK a bit higher than usual here because of 1) your smallish 2 bet and 2) he could be a little bit tilted...but we don't want to be flipping for stacks. However I would consider AA/KK more likely than AK. Maybe I call this with KK but not with QQ.

Weren't you looking for the right time to fold KK preflop just the other day with 100bb stacks? I think this is the time to fold QQ.

WVHillbilly said:

Weren't you looking for the right time to fold KK preflop just the other day with 100bb stacks? I think this is the time to fold QQ.

Click to expand...

have to aggre. What type of range is he 3 betting here? IMO AA/KK/QQ so you are likely behind. You can find much better spots to play a big pot than QQ p/f OOP. Fold it and smile at not stacking badly.

I have seen a few of your posts before and it seems to me that you dont mind a gamble, Poker tracker stats dont mean much to me, and as Rob said, "Why is everybody so reliant on Pokertracker stats nowadays? What's wrong with a fair battle of wits against an opponent?" so I say call and see the flop then react, how often have you seen a Q or QQ come on the flop.

Adding AK to his range doesn't help us. It's still a fold. We're in deep, deep trouble vs AA and KK, and we're just slightly better than a cointoss vs. AK. Only if he's willing to do this with JJ and AQ does this start to look like a call.

Fold.

Btw, I probably snap-call this at the table. Just figured I'd be fair and mention that.

F Paulsson said:

Btw, I probably snap-call this at the table. Just figured I'd be fair and mention that.

Click to expand...

lol, very true FP. I hate these spots, I soooo wanted to see a flop, but generally even if I do, I'm getting shoved on lots and with most of his range. Its probably better that im multi-tabling when im in these spots because I find it easier to just move onto the next hands.

I folded.

i whould fold QQ after a big reraise.
but im not sure, its the situation at the table, never know..

OK I gotta respond to this one....

Zorba said:

I have seen a few of your posts before and it seems to me that you dont mind a gamble,

Click to expand...

Do you dispute the fact that a tight player 3-betting this hard is almost always a hand that either beats us badly (KK/AA) or we are flipping with (AK)? Do you want to call on the hopes he is simply bluffing you?

If you want to call this and "gamble" be my guest but I only want to "gamble" when I'm a strong favorite. Which isn't so much gambling anyway is it? I define gambling as something predominately or exclusively based on chance.

Poker tracker stats dont mean much to me, and as Rob said, "Why is everybody so reliant on Pokertracker stats nowadays? What's wrong with a fair battle of wits against an opponent?"

Click to expand...

To me this sounds like someone who has never used PT. It's an incredibly powerful tool, and I would argue it is pretty much essential to doing extremely well online. You can do well without it sure, but take someone who does well without it, teach them to use PT and they will do better.

so I say call and see the flop then react,

Click to expand...

OK this is the statement that really gets me here. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm reading this and all I'm hearing is "I have QQ!! That's a great hand! I HAVE to see a flop with this".

Yes QQ is a very strong hand preflop. But it is pretty much no better than 22 if we are convinced our opponent holds AA/KK.


Here is what I do not hear in this last quoted part. I don't hear a plan for the hand. You say "call and see what happens". That's not a plan and not a reason to call. If you call, the pot will be $73.50 and villain has $59.15 behind. He can and frequently will shove the flop regardless of what he has or what the flop is. What villain has done here is make a commitment bet. He is threatening his entire stack without putting it all in the middle. If you call this you are going to be very hard pressed to justify folding on just about any flop because of pot size and odds you will get.


If the flop comes all low cards, are you going to call his all in and "see if he actually has it?". What if there is an A or K?

What if you flop 3 to a flush with one of your queens? Are you willing to call hoping he doesn't have the A and/or K of that suit?

Are you calling and planning to toss it to any c-bets he makes without spiking your set? If that's your plan then frankly it really sucks because you are set mining a 3 bet pot with QQ and without getting even remotely close to the needed odds to do so. If this is your plan even if you spike your Q congratulations, you made a giant mistake and will be losing money long term.

I personally would fold,
It is hands like this one below that make me think that tenbob likes a gamble, also he said that the villain was tag/unknown, at these limits ppl are always trying to scare you out of the pot especially after you reraise them, and yes if he dosen't hit the flop depending what the villain does fold.
Ive seen many ppl bet like that with 99-JJ and other weak PP.
PokerStars Game #15125517807: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2008/02/07 - 14:49:10 (ET)
Table 'Asios V' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: kwllrr ($96 in chips)
Seat 2: potbob ($52 in chips)
Seat 3: tenbob ($148.90 in chips)
Seat 4: ON EMPTY ($98.05 in chips)
Seat 5: Millwood24 ($117.75 in chips)
Seat 6: EnAmZgYnE1 ($111.90 in chips)
Seat 7: fabianTo ($100.90 in chips)
Seat 8: eunhobae ($98.50 in chips)
Seat 9: MaKiaVeli ($114.10 in chips)
kwllrr: posts small blind $0.50
potbob: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tenbob [3h 3d]
tenbob: calls $1
ON EMPTY: folds
Millwood24: folds
EnAmZgYnE1: folds
fabianTo: folds
eunhobae: folds
MaKiaVeli: raises $4 to $5
kwllrr: folds
potbob: folds
tenbob: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [2h 6h 4s]
tenbob: checks
MaKiaVeli: checks
*** TURN *** [2h 6h 4s] 7♣
tenbob: bets $9
MaKiaVeli: raises $15 to $24
tenbob: raises $119.90 to $143.90 and is all-in
MaKiaVeli: calls $85.10 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [2h 6h 4s 7c] J♠
*** SHOW DOWN ***
tenbob: shows [3h 3d] (a pair of Threes)
MaKiaVeli: shows [2d 2c] (three of a kind, Deuces)
MaKiaVeli collected $226.70 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $229.70 | Rake $3
Board [2h 6h 4s 7c Js]
Seat 1: kwllrr (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: potbob (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: tenbob showed [3h 3d] and lost with a pair of Threes
Seat 4: ON EMPTY folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Millwood24 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: EnAmZgYnE1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: fabianTo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: eunhobae folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: MaKiaVeli (button) showed [2d 2c] and won ($226.70) with three of a kind, Deuces

lolz. That hand was taken out of context Zorba. I cant find the thread where i posted it. It was a board mis-read Thought for some reason I had a set of 4's.

Really wish you could have shown that completed hand.

From what I read I would think along the lines of villain making a desperate attempt to recover from his stacking, which widens his range down to pocket 8's or 9's I think. I get the feeling if he had you beat at your raise he would have just called.

With your stack it would not have been totally disastrous, certainly uncomfortable, but not so very deadly. However, I commend your self control.

I would have insta-called. Partly because a raise implies a willingness to raise more, and there are some hands that sort of demand carrying through on. As I read that HH I felt this was one of those situations that almost demanded looking him up.

Villain is acting under the gun in this hand which makes it more likely that he holds AK, KK, or AA here. I fold my Queens in this spot.