QQ on the button, ace comes on flop

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orangepeeleo

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Not much in the way of reads from the villain, stats were at 61/22, AF of 10 over 18 hands

poker stars, $0.02/$0.05 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

SB: $2.56 (51.2 bb)
BB: $12.41 (248.2 bb)
UTG+1: $8.59 (171.8 bb)
MP1: $2.70 (54 bb)
MP2: $4.68 (93.6 bb)
MP3: $5.85 (117 bb)
CO: $2.16 (43.2 bb)
Hero (BTN): $4.93 (98.6 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with Q
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Q
club.gif

2 folds, MP2 calls $0.05, MP3 folds, CO calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.40, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.35, CO folds

Flop: ($0.92) 7
spade.gif
A
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2
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(2 players)
MP2 bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20

Turn: ($1.32) 5
diamond.gif
(2 players)
MP2 bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

River: ($2.12) 8
spade.gif
(2 players)
MP2 bets $3.68 and is all-in
Hero????

My idea was to flat call the flop then bet out if he checked the turn, him leading out again threw me a bit, maybe because of the small bet size it just looked like he wanted a call, i think i maybe should have folded the turn but is this too weak?? I have no idea where i was at on the river, bets like this throw me all the time when i havent got much history with the pusher.

Any thoughts or ideas would be hugely appreciated as with hands like this i really don't have much idea how to play them, should i have re-raised the flop?? So many questions lol
 
BelgoSuisse

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He has 87 and got there on the river.
 
I

islandtime2

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I would have reraised his flop bet to test him and if he reraised back I fold giving him credit for a big A and if he just called I have one foot out the door unless I spike another Q on the turn. With no info that he is a maniac I would respect his big bet on the river, fold, and wait for a better spot to get allin. Like Doyle says - never go broke with a Q in your hand - and like I say - scared money is better then no money!
 
BelgoSuisse

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I would have reraised his flop bet to test him

raising flop is bad. folds worse hands that are drawing very thin against us and gets called by all better hands.

This is very much WA/WB, so calling down is fine. Only question here is river, imo.
 
WVHillbilly

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I like the way you played it and I fold the river. BTW if he checks the turn, you should check behind, not bet. He's not often calling a turn bet without a hand that beats you and getting to the river for 2 bets (assuming he bets the river after you check behind on the turn) is a good thing. Now if he checks the river after you check behind on the turn, value betting the river make sense.
 
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orangepeeleo

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cheers for all that guys, and thanks to WV for reassuring me that i was on the right lines, i did fold the river, i was never calling that river bet, interesting that you'd say to check the turn behind him, i guess the thinking behind this is just to get to sd as cheap as possible??

Been reading harrington on cash and this seems to be a big point he pushes, the whole big hand big pot, small hand small pot idea, obviously QQ there is a small hand and betting the turn after he checks is just going to build the pot, which you don't want with a hand like this, is this along your line of thinking WV??
 
c9h13no3

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raising flop is bad. folds worse hands that are drawing very thin against us and gets called by all better hands.

This is very much WA/WB, so calling down is fine. Only question here is river, imo.
Gogo gadget devil's advocate:

Don't you think that this small donk lead is mostly middle pair/draw type hands? And secondly, don't you think that players who donk-lead are bad enough to call a raise with 2nd pair? I think the donk lead defines his range enough that I really wouldn't mind a raise at all.

WA/WB is great & all vs. competent players, but at 5$ NL against a 61/22 we can v-bet thinner than just top pair.
 
WVHillbilly

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My thinking is that with 2nd pair on an Ace high board I'm not likely to get 3 streets of value from a hand that I beat, so I check. I get to SD cheaper when he has an Ace and I often get him to put in a bet on the river (or he might call a bet on the river) with a hand that we beat.
 
WVHillbilly

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Gogo gadget devil's advocate:

Don't you think that this small donk lead is mostly middle pair/draw type hands? And secondly, don't you think that players who donk-lead are bad enough to call a raise with 2nd pair? I think the donk lead defines his range enough that I really wouldn't mind a raise at all.

WA/WB is great & all vs. competent players, but at 5$ NL against a 61/22 we can v-bet thinner than just top pair.


What's your raise going to accomplish? Won't he just fold hands we beat and stick around with any Ace? I agree the donk is odd but I really don't see what we gain with a raise.
 
silverslugger33

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He has 87 and got there on the river.

Where does this read come from? It doesn't fit anything he did for the entire hand. Even if you're right, I'm not sure I understand what's leading you to believe this.

First, he called a preflop raise out of position. While it's plausible that he could have done this with 87, it's far more likely that he did it with a hand like AJ.

Then he bet out on the flop, which I really don't think he'd do with a weak middle pair on that board. From his perspective, he has to consider what hands you would have raised with. Pretty much no hand (other than maybe KQ) is losing to his hand (if he indeed has 87 like you are claiming). Also, he likely isn't bluffing, since he's giving such good odds to call, that any hand better than a pair of 7s is going to call.

On the turn, he makes another minuscule bet. After encountering resistance on the flop in the form of a call, the villain knows that the hero has a pair of 7s with a weak kicker beat. There was no draw on the board, so hero obviously has something, and anything that calls that bet is beating his 7s. However, the bet was so small that he has to know the hero won't fold to it with any kind of a hand.

On the river, you are claiming that the villain made 2 pair. However, he shoves instead of just betting a normal amount. With 2 pair, he probably would (correctly) believe that he has the best hand, so he'd want to price the hero in. Therefore, rather than shoving all in, which likely doesn't get called, he would generally value bet his 2 pair, so that he can get paid off.


I know that it may seem cool to put them on a hand like 87, because when you're right, you look like a genius, but be careful. Almost every time, the simple read (AJ or thereabouts) is the right one, so don't get caught up in figuring out what they have on those extremely rare occasions when their hand doesn't fit the action at all.
 
c9h13no3

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What's your raise going to accomplish? Won't he just fold hands we beat and stick around with any Ace? I agree the donk is odd but I really don't see what we gain with a raise.
c9h13no3 said:
Don't you think that this small donk lead is mostly middle pair/draw type hands? And secondly, don't you think that players who donk-lead are bad enough to call a raise with 2nd pair?
So... idk... get money in the pot while we're ahead? Earn sklansky bucks?

I agree, the board is fairly drawless, but with his donk lead, he's turned his pair of 7's or pocket 8's face up. And according to sklansky's theory of poker, we make a mistake when we play in a way different from the way we play if we could see their cards. We pretty much know he has JJ-88, 57, 67, 78, 79, 34s, 45s when he donks (with maybe some A4 type hands thrown in), so we should then....raise?

I suppose raising can possibly shut down his donk leading, but who cares, its such a small percentage of the pot. If he were betting 3/4ths pot, then calling is obviously best. But as villain is playing it, I don't think going for 2 streets of value with this hand is that bad. I'd prolly raise the flop smallish & bet the turn smallish (1/2-2/3 pot or so), checking back most rivers.

Where does this read come from? It doesn't fit anything he did for the entire hand.
Work on your hand reading, because I wouldn't be surprised if his hand was EXACTLY 87. He bets small on the flop & turn "testing" to see if 2nd pair is good, and then he rivers a big hand. A8 and 88 also could be possible, but 78 is way more likely.
 
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WVHillbilly

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So... idk... get money in the pot while we're ahead? Earn sklansky bucks?

I agree, the board is fairly drawless, but with his donk lead, he's turned his pair of 7's or pocket 8's face up. And according to sklansky's theory of poker, we make a mistake when we play in a way different from the way we play if we could see their cards. We pretty much know he has JJ-88, 57, 67, 78, 79, 34s, 45s when he donks (with maybe some A4 type hands thrown in), so we should then....

...let him continue to put his money in with the worst of it while drawing slim? I still don't see where raising accomplishes anything other than getting him to fold a hand we beat.

Oh yeah and I agree 87 fits his play to a tee.
 
c9h13no3

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...let him continue to put his money in with the worst of it while drawing slim?
c9 said:
I suppose raising can possibly shut down his donk leading, but who cares, its such a small percentage of the pot.

We're not getting value here. We're essentially just letting him set his price to draw to a 5-outer. If he calls one of our raises once we get as much value as like 5-6 donk leads. Just treat his bet like a check, you'd probably bet the turn here if things went [check, check] on the flop and he checked the turn to you.
 
silverslugger33

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Work on your hand reading, because I wouldn't be surprised if his hand was EXACTLY 87. He bets small on the flop & turn "testing" to see if 2nd pair is good, and then he rivers a big hand. A8 and 88 also could be possible, but 78 is way more likely.

Actually, it isn't. You may be right about the bet on the flop, but throwing out a feeler bet on the turn after you already got called on the flop is completely foolish. Almost any experienced player will realize that if they have 87 after the turn with everything that had already happened, their hand is not the best. Therefore, they'll either check and hope to see a free card, or they'll make a bigger bet, hoping for a fold. Don't try to tell me it's a smart play to give someone 4 to 1 on a call when all you have is middle pair with a weak kicker. No better hand will fold, and no weaker hand is still in the pot at this point.

Also, you blatantly ignored multiple parts of my post:

1) Calling OOP preflop with 78 is an uncommon play. Also, the type of player who will play these sorts of hands will surely be more aggressive postflop, and will make bets the size of the pot (or at least half the pot).

2) Pushing all in on the river is foolish. If you hit your 2 pair, you want to get something out of it.

A8 or 88 are both far more likely than 78, but neither of those explains the huge overbet on the river. You can try to convince yourself that you're making this incredible read by saying they have 78, but it's not a logical read. You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
 
c9h13no3

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is completely foolish. Almost any experienced player will realize
Below I have quoted the first two lines of the opening post. Care to revise your answer?
Not much in the way of reads from the villain, stats were at 61/22, AF of 10 over 18 hands

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 NL Hold'em Cash Game
 
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BelgoSuisse

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Gogo gadget devil's advocate:

Don't you think that this small donk lead is mostly middle pair/draw type hands? And secondly, don't you think that players who donk-lead are bad enough to call a raise with 2nd pair?

Yes I think this is second pair a lot, actually i do think it's 87. And no i don't think fishes who donk bet second pair will call a raise, because i raise them all the time when i have air and they keep folding. So i prefer calling down here.

Too bad he hits two pairs on river, imo.
 
silverslugger33

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Below I have quoted the first two lines of the opening post. Care to revise your answer?

I'm holding to it that it is extremely unlikely that they have exactly 78. No matter how passive or aggressive they are, they are just as likely to get dealt AJ preflop as they are 78.
 
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