PLO8

What should I do here...

  • Fold

    Votes: 4 44.4%
  • Call

    Votes: 3 33.3%
  • raise (cap bet) figuring someone is going to anyway.

    Votes: 2 22.2%

  • Total voters
    9
zebranky

zebranky

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thought I'd post a hand out of another game.. especially with this weekend's team event:

PLO8, $1/$3 blinds ($6 Kill), I'm BB with around $120, everyone at the table has between $60 and $200.

hole cards [Ah][2h][Js][10s]
I love this hand! so many possibilities
limp/fold around to me, I raise to $6, all limpers call (no surprise there)

$30 pot
flop [As][Qh][4c]
not great, but not bad...
SB check , I bet $3, MP1 call, MP2 fold, LP raises to $6; SB fold, I call, MP1 calls.

$48 pot
turn [3h]
SB bets $6, I call, LP raises to $12, SB 3-bets to $18.
And I ???
 
RiverNoHelp

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I voted to fold, although I'm not 100% sure this is the correct action to take in this instance..When the 3 hits the turn that give you a flush draw to go with your gutshot straight draw, which gives you 11 outs to the nut hi hand (9 hearts, 2 Kings, remember one of the remaining three Kings is a heart).. That's alot of outs, no doubt, however you are only attempting to draw out to win half the pot.. I attempted to do the math assuming that you hit gin on the river with a heart but that caused me a terrible headache so I gave that up..Essentially you will be putting about $60 of your stack on the line to split a $140+ pot..I'm not sure it's worth the gamble when it's almost certain that someone has made a low hand already..
 
zebranky

zebranky

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what outs do I have

lets see if I calculated my outs correctly;
Any heart for nut high hand (A high flush) - 9 outs
and (non-heart) K for possible tie nut high hand (A high straight) - 3 outs

and, of course, any 5 for the possible tie nut low (wheel) - 4 outs

Ideal card is [5h], for double nut (and 3/4 of the pot minimum).

I'm certain MP1 made a good low hand - I think LP has the hight straight already...

so 15 cards I'm looking for out of 46 cards left - about 3:1
The problem is that 6/15 my outs probably give me a tie for hi/low (or 1/4 of the pot), and the implied odds are lousy if I hit the other 9 of my outs (because most people are willing to fold or flat call on a 3-of-a-suit board).
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

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He actually has 2 straight draws with the 5 giving him a straight and the nut low which of course is prob cut. It looks like the others are betting on low and the pair of aces could even win high without improvement, I've seen it happen alot when the others are betting for low. He has the 9 hears for outs and any king for 12 outs for the nut high hand. He also has 4 outs for nut low with the 5. The 5 of hears is Bingo, nut low and nut high I believe.

There have been 3 bets, isn't it capped already? Anyway, at this point I'm going to see the river with this hand so either call and call a raise or raise. Noone after you is folding although the SB might, so you might as well call and hope the raising ends.
 
zebranky

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3 bets so far, cap is the 4th bet/raise
 
JAMILE1

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I voted call, outs=9hearts, 3 other fives, 3 other kings for 15 outs, I say call and see the river as cheap as possible as you are only on a draw and I'm thinking someone has the high straight already, and you can be almost certain someone or 2 may be drawing to the low also, I know my post don't make to much sense but in my pea brain it does LOL, and if its capped I'm still leaning on calling as I like the nut flush draw and the low draw like the 5 hearts would be sweet here as you will get the hi and possibly split the low if not a scoop;)
 
mrsnake3695

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Yep, that's what I'm trying to sya, lol. The scoop possiblitlty makes it worth it even if you only end up with half.
 
Bombjack

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I think this is a relatively straightforward fold because you're splitting at best and probably aren't going to hit your flush on the river - you're looking at about 1 in 5 chance to split the pot, as the flush is the only way you're going to win the high. There's also a chance you're going be squeezed on this street.

It's a good starting hand but it went wrong when your Ace was counterfeited and you found yourself without a low.
 
millarski

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I voted Fold.

You're play before the flop was fine. I would check/call the flop as you have some backdoor possibilities that make it worthwhile seeing a 4th card. The 3h gives you the nut flush draw as well as a wheel draw but the betting on the turn suggests to me that someone might already have a wheel. More likely is that someone is pushing a set really hard which kills the 4h. I think you've got less outs than you think and remember, when you calculate your pot odds in split pot games you have to half the pot size if thats all you're playing for. I haven't done the math but at its best its a very close call, if it gets capped by the original bettor then its definately a bad call.
 
titans4ever

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You are a sucker for calling anything on the flop. You have no backup for the low and you lost your A.

You have to make that call.

As for what you got yourself into. You should only look at the hi since you are way behind in the low and if you catch that one saving card, well done then you lucky SOB.

The pot is right around $90. You are looking for any heart, 3 5s and 3 Ks. 15 outs and your are getting $12 into roughly a $45 pot for hi. You have odds just for that call and who knows you could scoop.
 
bubbasbestbabe

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Call and cap. You already called 6. It will cost you 12 more to see the river. And with PLO8 you get a lot of donks playing who have no idea of what they have in their hand until the end.
 
millarski

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The more I think about this hand the more I think you should fold. There are 5 players seeing the flop, you have an A in your hand and there is one on the flop. This should affect your playing of the hand because there are only two A's left and 4 more people in the pot. This info can help you estimate your opponents holdings. There are at least two people in this pot without an A. What kind of hands do you play without an A? Either low connecting cards like 2345, 2456, 2356 or high hands like KKQJ, QQKT. You wouldn't think this way playing NLHE but in O8 you can because so much of the deck is dealt. Its not certian that any of your opponents have these hands but its more likely.

All you have is pair of A's and a vulnerable draw, you don't have a hand locked in either direction and you're being squeezed for multiple double bets with one card to come. This is not a good situation to be in.
 
Shoestringx

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lets see if I calculated my outs correctly;
Any heart for nut high hand (A high flush) - 9 outs
and (non-heart) K for possible tie nut high hand (A high straight) - 3 outs

and, of course, any 5 for the possible tie nut low (wheel) - 4 outs

Ideal card is 5♥, for double nut (and 3/4 of the pot minimum).

I'm certain MP1 made a good low hand - I think LP has the hight straight already...

so 15 cards I'm looking for out of 46 cards left - about 3:1
The problem is that 6/15 my outs probably give me a tie for hi/low (or 1/4 of the pot), and the implied odds are lousy if I hit the other 9 of my outs (because most people are willing to fold or flat call on a 3-of-a-suit board).

LP can't have the high straight already, gotta use three cards from the board and only A and Q are there.
So if you do catch a 5 you could scoop the pot, or maybe split with MP1.
Pot is now $84 and you have $12 to call, though you will probably get raised by MP1 as he is likely padding the pot with a made low while 3 people are still involved.
Let's reach a little here, you'd need to spend $18 (most likely) to get to the river, the pot would be $120. Almost 7-1 pot odds. So.... what hands are you a 7-1 dog too?
I realize that you are likely to split so $18 into $60 is right about the 3-1 odds that your 15 outs give you.
Honestly I'd likely call in this situation, but I confess to know very little about PLO8 as I don't play it very much.

Incidentally, did you have any reads on these players?
 
zebranky

zebranky

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LP can't have the high straight already, gotta use three cards from the board and only A and Q are there.
So if you do catch a 5 you could scoop the pot, or maybe split with MP1.
Pot is now $84 and you have $12 to call, though you will probably get raised by MP1 as he is likely padding the pot with a made low while 3 people are still involved.
Let's reach a little here, you'd need to spend $18 (most likely) to get to the river, the pot would be $120. Almost 7-1 pot odds. So.... what hands are you a 7-1 dog too?
I realize that you are likely to split so $18 into $60 is right about the 3-1 odds that your 15 outs give you.
Honestly I'd likely call in this situation, but I confess to know very little about PLO8 as I don't play it very much.

Incidentally, did you have any reads on these players?
What I mean by "has the high straight" is that he plays high cards, and probably has the OESD or hole draw (needs to river one of his hole cards) to get the straight. The upshot is that I figure he will win the high hand if I do not hit the K or heart on the river.
You're obviously thinking just like me on the math side of things - I do figure 3.5 to 1 for half the pot, and I have around 15 outs to make one or both of the hi and lo pot.

Its a lot harder to get reads in O8 (mostly because so many more people play each hand and with a much wider range than NLHE), but LP has tended to play for high hands, while MP has won a couple of hi's and a couple of lo's since I've been at the table. Neither one is significantly more aggressive/loose/weak/passive than the average O8 player.

oh yeah, one error I noticed in my posting: the flop/turn should read like this, sorry for any confusion:
$30 pot
flop A♠Q♥4♣
not great, but not bad...
SB check , I bet $3, MP1 call, MP2 fold, LP raises to $6; SB Calls, I call, MP1 Folds.

$48 pot
turn 3♥
SB bets $6, I call, LP raises to $12, SB 3-bets to $18.


So I decided I want to keep this hand and will pay to draw. I'm fairly certain LP would cap it anyway, so I raise the last $6 to pretend some strength to cap the betting, both call.

$120 pot
river [6h]

Terrific, huh? I have the hi locked up!
SB bets $6, I raise to $12, LP calls, SB calls.

SB shows [2c][6c][Kc][Ad]
pair A, K kick for Hi
A2346 lo

LP shows [Qd][Qc][Jc][10h]
Trip Q for Hi (okay, so I misread this guy completely)
no lo hand

And I end up with
Flush, A high for Hi (I win)
A2346 lo - split the low.

3/4 of $156. I love poker.

I thought it was a great play at the time, but now I'm not so sure. I know answers from this point on may be result orientated, but any other thoughts?
 
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Bombjack

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Why are they just raising by 6 if it's Pot Limit?
 
zebranky

zebranky

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oops

Why are they just raising by 6 if it's Pot Limit?

The amazing thing is you're the first one to spot this!
sorry, all I should have said LO8 - it's 3/6 limit, NOT Pot limit.
 
millarski

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Nice result.

I still think folding was the right option. Lets look at your outs.

4h - you get scooped
5h - you get 3/4
6h - you get 3/4
7h to Kh - you get 1/2
non h 5 - you get 1/4
non h K - you get 1/4

So, of your 15 outs, 1 gets you nothing, 8 gets you half or more and 6 you break even*. The key to winning at Omaha 8 is to make high percentage plays after the flop. I dont think calling multiple double bets with 1 card to come when half your outs only get you your money back is a winning play.

I know that there's in no way to tell during a hand which outs win you what but you can take a fair guess. a 5 puts 4 wheel cards on the board which makes it likely you wont have the only wheel. High straight draws go way down in value when a low is possible and if you know a player favours high cards then its even more likely that its no good. So the only outs that you can call solid are Hearts that dont pair the board. How do feel about playing the hand when only 8 outs make you any money?

In all the books and articles I've read on Omaha 8, the general advice is to avoid situations like that. The times you escape with half or break even wont make up for the times that you get scooped.

*If you get 1/4rd in a 3 handed pot you lose money, in a 4 handed pot you break even, 5 handed or more you make a little.
 
zebranky

zebranky

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yup

thanks millarski, I think you hit the nail on the head about my outs really not being not very good at all. You're right, with 8 outs, I don't think I'm calling this one.
 
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