PLO: what's best turn play?

pokerstars Game #12271196104: Omaha Pot Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007/09/25 - 21:40:02 (ET)
Table 'Risha V' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: petit tomato ($26.35 in chips)
Seat 2: LABLEHEAD ($6.25 in chips)
Seat 3: BabyHumvee ($16.10 in chips)
Seat 4: fixer410 ($11.15 in chips)
Seat 5: renereal ($11.40 in chips)
Seat 6: KEVIN4854 ($8.95 in chips)
renereal: posts small blind $0.05
KEVIN4854: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BabyHumvee
petit tomato: folds
LABLEHEAD: raises $0.25 to $0.35
BabyHumvee: raises $0.45 to $0.80
fixer410: calls $0.80
renereal: folds
KEVIN4854: calls $0.70
LABLEHEAD: calls $0.45
*** FLOP ***
KEVIN4854: checks
LABLEHEAD: checks
BabyHumvee: bets $2.30
fixer410: calls $2.30
KEVIN4854: folds
LABLEHEAD: calls $2.30
*** TURN ***
LABLEHEAD: bets $3.15 and is all-in
BabyHumvee ?

Flat call and hope pot odds convince fixer410 to come along for the ride as well?

The outs for anyone making a better straight than you on the river are pretty slim, and the heart draw is a back door so I'd figure it's unlikely anyone was hanging around based just on that.

I can't for the life of me imagine what hands the other two are holding that makes their betting make sense though... unless one (or both) of them have T9 in their hands as well

So it's better to call than to raise and protect a vulnerable hand against sets filling up or a flush coming on the river? What do you do on the river when a scare card comes?

I'd say Lablehead has either a set or 9/10.

I'd raise this. I've had too many nut straight hands beat. I guess you're really afraid of Ah xh 9 10 hands but I don't see why you want to let others come along for the correct price. I know you want to get max value but I feel the hand needs to be bet. Sets and flush draws may still call anyway depending on the level of play at the table.

I'd re-pot it, because people still to act probably have enough outs that even that would convince them to put money in.

OzExorcist said:

Flat call and hope pot odds convince fixer410 to come along for the ride as well?

The outs for anyone making a better straight than you on the river are pretty slim, and the heart draw is a back door so I'd figure it's unlikely anyone was hanging around based just on that.

I can't for the life of me imagine what hands the other two are holding that makes their betting make sense though... unless one (or both) of them have T9 in their hands as well

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There's the fun part of Omaha, i'm sure initially he wasnt hanging around for it but having 2 hearts in his hand (and from our all in guy I smell something to the tune of 9h,10h or Qh,9h but not necessarily anything all that higher for the floosh draw) and seeing that turn probably gives him tons of outs to either a J or Q high straight with a mid flush draw if he hasnt already made his straight like we have. This thing is only 3 handed now and we're not the ones holding 2 hearts in our hand, and i'd be willing to bet almost anything that one of them definetely has the flush draw.

At this point in the hand, I really dont see us doing anything other than smooth calling and seeing how the other guy reacts to the bet himself. One way or another all the money is going in the middle from all 3 players by the time the hand is done I think.

Let's say that we reraise all in here, what are we hoping to accomplish? We have the best possible hand at this point and unless a heart hits on the river (or the board pairs but that happens less often than you think it does in Omaha) we will at worst chop this pot. So our reraise could scare off the guy who doesnt have the flush draw and we most likely have crushed. The smooth call gives us MORE information about the last guy to act, and what were up against.

Now if we smooth call and he reraises the rest of his chips in, then we find out that he's probably not betting a set by itself anymore, he's betting a set with a nice flush draw, and we can decide whether or not to throw the extra chips in the middle. (But again, at this point noone can tell me you're getting away from this hand one way or the other).

The last option is our smooth call and his smooth call, which can only mean extreme weakness on his part i'd guess. He would definetely be drawing to the board pairing or be hoping a lower straight is good and I'm sure we can still extract at least some of that last $5 he has with him in the end.

But lastly, this is the beauty of Omaha. You're playing at a micro table where I can pretty much guarantee you that 95% of the players don't understand the concept and will stay with that set of trips thinking its good because they cant grasp the fullness of the game. Honestly no matter what move you make I dont view it as a bad one from this point, just a matter of opinion really.

A set needs the board to pair to beat you, so they've got 9 outs: they're about 22% to hit.

A flush draw has 8 outs (you've got Jh) and is 17% to hit.

To get a better straight than you, one of the opponents has to be holding either Q9 or QT, and have the corresponding 9 or T fall on the river: 3 outs for either case, 6.5%

Worst case is you're facing all three possibilities, and there's... what, 9 + 7 (already counted 3h) + 3 = 19 outs at 41% to hit.

If my math is wrong, anybody feel free to correct me. But otherwise, this is what I figure:

Sure the hand's vulnerable but it's still a 59% favourite. If this was on the flop, we'd be an underdog to the draws. But with one card to come, you're ahead.

I actually like Vanquish's idea now that he's mentioned it: if you re-pot on the turn and the third player calls, you've got their money in with you as a favourite. If you flat call, they flat call and a non-scare card comes on the river, you might not get any more money out of them.

Of course, there's the chance that if you re-pot the third player will fold on the spot... but they'd have had to called the flop with a pretty weak hand to do that. Right option would depend on your read on the player I guess.

I think getting it all in here with a vulnerable nut hand is best. As mentioned above, I am the favorite. I may not be able to price out others from their draws, but it would be criminal to give them a free card.

Going all-in with 1 card to come as the favorite in this particular situation is a must play in a cash game. Those who think otherwise are thinking like tournament players. The pot (now at $14+ or 1.4 buy-ins) is too big relative to the stack sizes to even consider another play.

skoldpadda said:

Going all-in with 1 card to come as the favorite in this particular situation is a must play in a cash game. Those who think otherwise are thinking like tournament players.

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LOL - fair point, I'm probably approaching this with more of a tournament mindset. To my mind, there's arguments both ways and the correct choice is just the one that's likely to get the most of fixer's money in the pot.

So which one had T9 in their hand?

From what ive seen of low limit omaha hands, people are willing to call with absolute garbage, so I just pot this. Any time I have the nuts I just pot almost no matter what b/c its not uncommon to see 4 all ins on a a hand.

Sadly I think my mind stays in a tournament mindset, that's just how I am lol

*** TURN *** [Js 3c 8h] [7h]
LABLEHEAD: bets $3.15 and is all-in
BabyHumvee: raises $9.85 to $13 and is all-in
fixer410: calls $8.05 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Js 3c 8h 7h] [6d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BabyHumvee: shows [Td Kd Jh 9s] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
fixer410: shows [6s Kh 6h Ks] (three of a kind, Sixes)
BabyHumvee collected $9.35 from side pot
LABLEHEAD: mucks hand
BabyHumvee collected $18.65 from main pot
fixer410 leaves the table
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $29.40 Main pot $18.65. Side pot $9.35. | Rake $1.40
Board [Js 3c 8h 7h 6d]
Seat 1: petit tomato folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: LABLEHEAD mucked [4h 9h Qd 5d]
Seat 3: BabyHumvee showed [Td Kd Jh 9s] and won ($28) with a straight, Seven to Jack
Seat 4: fixer410 (button) showed [6s Kh 6h Ks] and lost with three of a kind, Sixes
Seat 5: renereal (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: KEVIN4854 (big blind) folded on the Flop

See after reading how that finished up, it just supports my "no one at micro's even has a clue how to truly play Omaha" theory. Luckily you have these threads going and are educating the masses

Well, I like to think some people at the micro levels can play well. There is so much on this forum about NLHE ring and tourneys that I thought focusing on some important Omaha (PLO) concepts would be nice since inevitably many people will take more interest in the game. I know it's much more popular in Europe than the USA. As a math-oriented player, it's much more up my alley than NLHE. It's easier to have an edge with a good grasp of math (and an ability to do it quickly).

dwbrown7680 said:

At this point in the hand, I really dont see us doing anything other than smooth calling and seeing how the other guy reacts to the bet himself. One way or another all the money is going in the middle from all 3 players by the time the hand is done I think.

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Smooth calling is bad imo.

How is money going allin by time hand is done no matter what?

If villain has flush draw or is going for FH and doesnt hit it on river, how is all his money going in on river?

Let's say that we reraise all in here, what are we hoping to accomplish?

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Get paid by chasing flush draws, sets, 2 pairs, or whatever the guy has?

We have the best possible hand at this point and unless a heart hits on the river (or the board pairs but that happens less often than you think it does in Omaha) we will at worst chop this pot. So our reraise could scare off the guy who doesnt have the flush draw and we most likely have crushed. The smooth call gives us MORE information about the last guy to act, and what were up against.

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What do we need the information for?

If he smooth calls, what dyou find out? That he doesnt have the nuts, which you do, and that he just got a cheap draw?

Now if we smooth call and he reraises the rest of his chips in, then we find out that he's probably not betting a set by itself anymore, he's betting a set with a nice flush draw, and we can decide whether or not to throw the extra chips in the middle. (But again, at this point noone can tell me you're getting away from this hand one way or the other).

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So you want to see if he raises, and if he does, youre putting him on a certain hand, but youre not folding anyway... So again, whats the info for?

Besides, why would u want to fold if he has a set plus flush draw