nl$100 QQ overpair, big pot bet size that dosnt commit me ?

This is a bitch of a spot. All sorts of ranges here, I dont really mind getting in vs the shortstacks, but how much do i bet here that lets me get away if the big stack wakes up.

Stacks: - elunico99 with $51.45 - noemie77 with $41.15 - Amélie with $89.20 - king_noth_ with $120.10 - Spagiari with $133.35 - nazareneoh with $221.80 - tenbob with $141.05 - CSHall with $71.30 - donvito71 with $35.20

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: Pokerstars
- Dealt to tenbob:

- Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
- 1 players fold.
- donvito71 calls [$1]
- noemie77: checks
- 2 players fold.
- king_noth_ calls [$1]
- 1 players fold.
- nazareneoh calls [$0.50]
- tenbob raises $5.50 to $6.50
- donvito71 calls [$5.50]
- noemie77 calls [$5.50]
- 1 players fold.
- nazareneoh calls [$5.50]
- Total folds this street: 5
- Potsize: $27
Flop:

- nazareneoh: checks
- tenbob bets how much ???????????

WA/WB. I'd say check-call.

KyleJRM said:

WA/WB. I'd say check-call.

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No way. Why can i assume im way behind here ? My hand is also very vunerable to overcards, checking and folding if an over hits is pure insane.

KyleJRM said:

WA/WB. I'd say check-call.

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But for the time when he's wa (most of the time for sure) he's giving a free card to 3 ppl if he checks - I'd say bet $20 - $27 would be fairly standard non-comittal here. The only trouble is you might find AJ playing back at you... Hmmm gl with this one.

edit: yep like tb said above. Here is a case where passive play of wa/wb is correct, but this is not always the case.

~$18, fold if the bigstack check-raises, call any other shove

combuboom said:

~$18, fold if the bigstack check-raises, call any other shove

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What about if button raises? I think leading out for $18 is too weak and will invite KJ/AJ to play back at us imo, as it looks so much like a scared c-bet from TT or even AK.

Pot is $26. 3 players dragging along with each having something. You want some info, some out and one to chase. Not much to ask for. I would bet $15. This should fit the criteria.

snapcall if button raises... we'll be getting like 4:1. we want KJ/AJ to think they have the best hand... if it's the shortstacks, they'll shove. if it's the big stack he'll call, and we have position on him. if the big stack checkraises AJ or KJ here, he's horrible and turning his hand into a bluff. if he's not braindead he's only doing so with a set and little else. also, c-betting 2/3 the pot into 3 players on a bone-dry board doesn't look very weak to me

If we're sure he's way ahead most of the time, I'll defer to the better players, but with three players calling a big raise. But you are now way behind 5 of the 12 other pocket pairs you could be facing, including all three of the ones most likely to call pre-flop. I know we don't want to give free cards with three in the hand, but this isn't exactly a draw-scary board.

combuboom said:

snapcall if button raises... we'll be getting like 4:1.

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Would we snapcall or snapshove? If snapcall what happens if an ace or king or jack comes on the turn? If shove then it's just the same as getting involved with the big stack as we only have a few bucks more than button, so we are in just as much danger from SB as from button imo

uh assuming that the big stack folds, snapcalling the button's raise and shoving are basically the same thing... if he minimum raises, he's all-in, and he's got the other shortstack covered. you do realize if either of the shortstacks shove, the big stack will act before us

edit: i think you're mixing up two of the stacks. the button had only $41 to start the hand. the $89 stack is not in the hand

jaketrevvor said:

so we are in just as much danger from SB as from button imo

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Ugh. I noticed where I went wrong. I though for some crazyass reason that the button was still in the hand...... :banghead: If you knew I thought this my posts would have made more sense instead of just sounding like the ramblings of a madman

er, yeah, that's what i meant, the button isn't actually in the hand, but i was referring to noemie, the $41 stack. why's there another B by noemie's name? i just took a cursory glance at the converter picture so i thought that B was button. the other B is big blind so i dunno

edit: oh i get it, it means they posted the big blind out of position. that part confused me a little, but my point still stands !!!

Wouldn't this situation warrant information on the players mainly nazar's. Lets just say he fits into two categories TAG or LAG. With a TAG I would bet 25 if a call and then a raise occurs I would think you could put Don Vito on a JA and nazar on a set.....( I would say fold at this point or put a defensive bet to see where you are but that would be putting 2/5 to 3/5 of ur chip stack at risk...good thing u can buy back in but i would fold......

Ok now same bet but small stack folds and nazar does raise lets say 40.... I would throw a re-raise to around 80 or 90 . If he goes all-in because of his TAG nature you would have to fold and hate your queens for a week if he calls and a blank comes out I would go All-in no matter what he bet on 4th St.

(*I am going to make are small stack a TAG player )

For the LAG player I would make a bet of 18.00 if small stack calls once again u can put him on a hand like JA more then likely this will make are LAG player play back for re-raise lets say 70.00 a hefty pot size bet, I would push here the for 118.55 that make are villain almost committed to call with a marginal hand like JQ JK, and if he is a true LAG with very little perception he will call with JA

Hope this analysis is descent would like feed back especially from you Jake I dont think I have read a bad thread post by you yet

eh, even if he was "LAG" doesn't mean he's going to turn a J into a bluff or try an insane bluff on a PFR on this board after we c-bet into 3 people. we're most probably representing an overpair. trying to bluff a player off an overpair here is pretty bad definitely -EV, so even a LAG wouldn't try it here (even though it would work against tenbob because he's good enough to get away from it). it would take a lot of history and meta game to make it a viable spot for him to bluff

ahh sorry thought there were only 3 players involved in this hand sorry should have read better....ahhhh thought about it and you are completly right combuboom but lets change it up lets say Nazar has something more like a 5-6 suited( Spades for the hell of it ) and followed the same betting structure... would this make more sense?

Sorry about my ramblings.. had a bit to drink last night ( was great ). I still stick with my scenarios but to address the actual question I would say the bet would have to be around 22-30. Thats a big opening bet but if you get raised it will be allot easier to get away from then if someone raised you from a 15-20 opening bet. i need another drink.....