NL$100 KK play, whats our line for the rest of the hand.

Again im playing on the laggier side of TAG, villian is a bit of a fish on 39/11/5 hes aggro though post flop. Ace rag is in his range.

pokerstars Game #13589862294: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/12/01 - 18:43:56 (ET)
Table 'Rutllant II' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: ranka666 ($135.95 in chips)
Seat 2: edthekat ($124.55 in chips)
Seat 3: mufahula ($84.65 in chips)
Seat 4: Richy10 ($101.20 in chips)
Seat 5: JareBehr ($115.75 in chips)
Seat 6: Zaphod417 ($77.35 in chips)
Seat 7: lies5317 ($103.75 in chips)
Seat 8: tenbob ($126.50 in chips)
Seat 9: djones148 ($16.10 in chips)
JareBehr: posts small blind $0.50
Zaphod417: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tenbob [Ks Kc]
lies5317: folds
tenbob: raises $3 to $4
djones148: folds
ranka666: folds
edthekat: folds
mufahula: folds
Richy10: folds
JareBehr: calls $3.50
Zaphod417: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d 5c Ah]
JareBehr: checks
tenbob: ?

I think this is a fairly simple wa/wb scenario. Theres no real draw out there, so Id say its safe to check behind here. You are allowing him to bluff on later in the hand and keeping the pot small if hes trying to trap you.

bw07507 said:

I think this is a fairly simple wa/wb scenario.

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That. The only difference being that you're going to be facing harder-to-call bets postflop from a player with high postflop AFs.

bw07507 said:

I think this is a fairly simple wa/wb scenario. Theres no real draw out there, so Id say its safe to check behind here. You are allowing him to bluff on later in the hand and keeping the pot small if hes trying to trap you.

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This.

ChuckTs said:

That. The only difference being that you're going to be facing harder-to-call bets postflop from a player with high postflop AFs.

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and that.

Yes, standard WA/WB here, no need to get fancy: I call a turn bet and a river bet by this guy all night long since a lot of stuff that he won't reraise is in his range that we beat (KQ, KJ, SCs, etc.) and that he might bluff/hit. I probably check behind if he bets/check river since an aggro guy like this wouldn't try to trap us if he didn't have the nuts and we're not getting called by hands that we beat very often.

Only thing I'm asking myself is how did he perceived your raise ? You say you were on the laggy side, but do you think opponent can observe this and just be trying to keep you honest with nothing in the blinds. If so, his bluffind range widens up even more and a call because even more profitable.

IMHO, textbook example of small ball poker since our hand is marginal but still has showdown value against such a guy.

I just come off an AA, AK, AK , KK, KK back to back line of hands, none of which reached showdown. So my table image is taggy, but laggy

I would make a slightly more than a pot bet (like $10-$12) and see what happens. It would give you an idea if he has an Ace or not. If he calls, I would consider folding if the turn doesn't help you.

t1riel said:

I would make a slightly more than a pot bet (like $10-$12) and see what happens. It would give you an idea if he has an Ace or not. If he calls, I would consider folding if the turn doesn't help you.

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If you do that, You are making a big pot with a weak hand if he has the ace. If he doesn't have the Ace or better, then he is going to fold. There is a chance he may call it down if he has some sort of hand, but it is hard to see what that could be considering he called the raise. Maybe JJ. QQ, but a re raise is more likely

I say Check, see what he does on the next street.

Potting it is terrible here, Tim, and overbetting the pot is even worse. Are you considering his holdings?

This is classic wa/wb. He's either on a hand that has us drawing to 2 outs or fewer (Ax, 77 or 55), or is on a hand that is drawing to ~5 outs or fewer itself (99 or 76 for ex).

(there is a slight difference between a classic wa/wb here and that's the fact that there are two possible, but unlikely, OESDs here with 86 and 64 but they don't really change things enough to make a difference)

Now take a look at those hands and tell me what advantage betting has?

edit: (what B-S said)

check, call just about any turn bet (since you practically induce it by checking behind), reevaluate river. if he bets like 2/3-3/4 pot on a blank turn and 2/3-3/4 on a blank river it becomes kinda read-based whether to call or fold on 5th street, but in general it's a fold

ChuckTs said:

Potting it is terrible here, Tim, and overbetting the pot is even worse. Are you considering his holdings?

This is classic wa/wb. He's either on a hand that has us drawing to 2 outs or fewer (Ax, 77 or 55), or is on a hand that is drawing to ~5 outs or fewer itself (99 or 76 for ex).

(there is a slight difference between a classic wa/wb here and that's the fact that there are two possible, but unlikely, OESDs here with 86 and 64 but they don't really change things enough to make a difference)

Now take a look at those hands and tell me what advantage betting has?

edit: (what B-S said)

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You said it much better than I did I didn't actually know what WA/WB was until just, although I already knew the concept as my post should have shown

He could actually have AA, he has played it poorly if he has, but it is a play that some players make. Main aim to keep the pot at a reasonable size if possible, if not get out of there I say and wait for a better spot.

WoW! How did I ever miss that dbtel thread? I would have recommended a CB here. Now I'm not so sure. Thanks for linking that Chuck. I had no idea what wa/wb meant.

np Dogs. It was very, very enlightening for me, too. As were some of his other threads. Try searching for threads started by him; you'll find some other goodies too.

BRING HIM BACK, NICK

WA/WB. Standard. That link should be in our golden archive if it isn't.

tenbob said:

Again im playing on the laggier side of TAG, villian is a bit of a fish on 39/11/5 hes aggro though post flop. Ace rag is in his range.

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I'm considering this.

If he does have Ace-rag, why didn't he bet it post flop if he usually is aggressive post-flop? My guess is he called with connectors just to protect his small blind. He could have a straight draw, all the more reason to bet it.

I guess in this situation you react differently in ring games than in tournament. I rarely play in ring games so I'm probably the less credible poster here.

t1riel said:

If he does have Ace-rag, why didn't he bet it post flop if he usually is aggressive post-flop?

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Maybe a check-raise, maybe a slowplay, who knows. Ax isn't the only hand in his range, remember.

t1riel said:

My guess is he called with connectors just to protect his small blind. He could have a straight draw, all the more reason to bet it.

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MUBS much? There are two - count 'em - two hands that have flopped on open-ender, and there are a few gutshots (also unlikely) that will improve about 1 in 12 times.

Other hands include 44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8o+,J9o+ and T9o. Tell me which of those hands are favourable to bet against, and which aren't.

ChuckTs said:

Maybe a check-raise, maybe a slowplay, who knows. Ax isn't the only hand in his range, remember.



MUBS much? There are two - count 'em - two hands that have flopped on open-ender, and there are a few gutshots (also unlikely) that will improve about 1 in 12 times.

Other hands include 44+,A2s+,K2s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,87s,A3o+,K7o+,Q8o+,J9o+ and T9o. Tell me which of those hands are favourable to bet against, and which aren't.

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All of them are favorable except A,2, A,3 and 44.

ok, why?

Let's use:

AQ?
T9?
45?

ChuckTs said:

ok, why?

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Because you're WAY behind and the percentage of winning is low.

ChuckTs said:

Let's use:

AQ?
T9?
45?

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A, Q isn't favorable because of the reason I stated above. The other two are. At least with A, 2 and A, 3 there's a small chance he'll fold due to the crap kicker. A, Q, there is no way he's folding no matter what you bet.

Wait, we're getting mixed up here. You said every hand in the range I listed is a good hand to bet against except A2-A4. Now you're saying AQ is a bad hand to bet against?

ChuckTs said:

Wait, we're getting mixed up here. You said every hand in the range I listed is a good hand to bet against except A2-A4. Now you're saying AQ is a bad hand to bet against?

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I didn't see the + at first.

A-anything is a bad hand to bet against as well as 6,8, pocket fours and sevens

t1riel said:

A-anything is a bad hand to bet against

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Right - all we're doing is giving money to a better hand in this situation. Since players (especially 39/11-loose ones) love aces, he's rarely if ever letting go here. Betting vs an ace = losing play.

t1riel said:

as well as 6,8,

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No, like you were saying earlier, 68 (and 64 for the lower draw) are actually the few hands we want to bet against. They're the ones we don't want to give a free draw to. They take up a very small portion of his range though so we don't have to worry too much about them (or the gutshots).

t1riel said:

pocket fours and sevens

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I think you meant 55 and 77 here, and this is also true. vs a set we obviously don't want to bet because we're waaayyy behind them. Betting vs a set = losing play.

So what about unimproved pocket pairs (22-44, 66, 88-QQ) and unimproved unpaired type hands (JT for ex)? What merits does betting have against those?

ChuckTs said:

Right - all we're doing is giving money to a better hand in this situation. Since players (especially 39/11-loose ones) love aces, he's rarely if ever letting go here. Betting vs an ace = losing play.



No, like you were saying earlier, 68 (and 64 for the lower draw) are actually the few hands we want to bet against. They're the ones we don't want to give a free draw to. They take up a very small portion of his range though so we don't have to worry too much about them (or the gutshots).



I think you meant 55 and 77 here, and this is also true. vs a set we obviously don't want to bet because we're waaayyy behind them. Betting vs a set = losing play.

So what about 9To, 66 and QJ type hands? What merits does betting have against those?

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I screwed up on 6,8. Sorry. I did mean 55 and 77. My main reason for betting is to see if he has the Ace (or pocket fives or pocket sevens). A set is possible. A call from the opponent with the bet I suggested would send a warning flag. I don't want to mess around with a flop like that. I would rather take the pot now if he has junk or a draw.

t1riel said:

A call from the opponent with the bet I suggested would send a warning flag. I don't want to mess around with a flop like that. I would rather take the pot now if he has junk or a draw.

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OK here's what I'm getting at. If we check our kings here, we can do several very good things for ourselves and for our hand.

-For one, we make those 99 hands or JT that hits a ten on the turn think their hand is good and possibly put more chips in
-Another thing we do is invite the "aggro though post flop" player to bluff, say QJ on a T turn
-Finally, we also save chips vs a set and vs an ace

We will often be facing a turn bet because of this, but that's a good thing because he'll be bluffing or betting with a worse hand a lot of the time. If he fires again on an innocuous river, we can probably safely fold unless it's inviting enough.

For ex:

We check the kings,

turn is the Ts, he bets $5, we call,

river is the 2c, he bets $5, we call.

He most likely shows JT or 66 or something else like that, and occasionally an ace.

Another ex:

We check the kings,

turn is the Ts, he bets $7, we call,

river is the 9c, he bets $20, we fold.

He will most likely have something like a set/strong ace/straight/2 pair here and we can easily fold vs a series of bets that strong.

In tournaments, I usually check due to fear of the ace. That was one of my problems in my poker playing. Fearing the Ace, straight, flush, etc. I realized I need to be more aggressive and constantly doing the c-bet. Also, betting the top pair or better when there is a flush or straight draw. I discussed this further in my thread:

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/fear-73223/