Nitty fold or smart play?

I'm in a 1-2NL game I play in twice a week. I'm second largest stack with $400. Standard raises for this game run $12-$25. I raise $20 in the CO with AK suited. SB is a loose player with $100 and he shoves all-n. I'm planning to snap call until seat 5, biggest stack with $500 and a solid conservative player, also shoves. I'm not afraid of the SB but I put seat 5 on a big pair, likely KK or AA, knowing how he plays. I fold not wanting to shove AK against what I figure is at least one, and maybe two, big pairs. SB shows AQ off and seat 5 shows KQ off. Neither player improves and I would have scooped the pot if I'd called. My friends at the table call me the biggest nit in the world for folding AK pre flop. I disagree. Thoughts?

I don't think you did anything wrong. You were playing conservative and didn't want to lose to much money. Chances of them having AA or KK were slim, but it's always a possibility. Don't think too badly about it.

In my opinion you have not played badly. I play the same way.

Thanks. AK has become a super premium hand lately but I can't bring myself to play it that strong. Even against JJ or QQ I'm behind. And I try not to commit too much to a pot when I'm behind.

Id call... generally i make tight folds with ak but if he had aa or kk why would he shove n get everyone else fold out??

Aces2w1n said:

Id call... generally i make tight folds with ak but if he had aa or kk why would he shove n get everyone else fold out??

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You advocate folding AK vs an online reg pre 100 bb deep after we put in a third of our stack but advocate calling off 250 bbs against a shove and a reshove in a live game where players are tight when it comes to preflop raises? Being results orientated?

I fold here too unless I have some kind of read on villain that says otherwise. Ive played around 1000 hours of 1/2 this year and its rare that this is worse then JJ. Most villains dont play Ax that fast but maybe I played in softer 1/2 games.

Also, dont listen to people you are playing with. Of course they are going to needle and try to tilt you to throw off your game. And no matter how tempted dont tell people about folds like this.

Dont put results in your hand histories or it is going to skew the majority of replies you receive.

Kinda nit,but you should always trust your instinct and observation.

IPlay said:

You advocate folding AK vs an online reg pre 100 bb deep after we put in a third of our stack but advocate calling off 250 bbs against a shove and a reshove in a live game where players are tight when it comes to preflop raises? Being results orientated?

I fold here too unless I have some kind of read on villain that says otherwise. Ive played around 1000 hours of 1/2 this year and its rare that this is worse then JJ. Most villains dont play Ax that fast but maybe I played in softer 1/2 games.

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No i just read the situation if hes got kk or aa hes not shoving he should b flatting.. solid player does that

50 50 either way you play it right if you had called you would have won but hindsight is 20 20

your read was wrong but oh well no shame in my opinion if i was the Chip leader there i would never have shoved with KQ

200 deep it's a no-brainer fold given the action and your read. Also you're giving seat 5 WAY too much credit. His shove that deep is HORRID!!! I totally understand him assigning you a wide range and wanting to get HU against the half-stacked fish but he's risking an awful lot just hoping you don't have a big pair.

Aces2w1n said:

No i just read the situation if hes got kk or aa hes not shoving he should b flatting.. solid player does that

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You are assuming that a 1/2 live player is a solid player lol. 99% of them are donkeys and worse than online 25NL players. I doubt many would be clever enough to be trappy with AA/KK this way.

This is very results oriented. By reshoving, he is representing AK/JJ+. And since there is a shove and reshove, it's almost guaranteed that one or both players are holding one, two, or three of our six outs. And if one of them has a pocket pair, we are crushed. And why would we want to ever stack off with AK for 200BB? That's a really gross spot and very unprofitable, especially given that our outs are going to be blocked by one or both players. Even stacking off with KK 200BB deep is generally going to be a mistake, especially online. Not sure about live, but online that's criminal unless you have a sick read they can stack off 200BB deep without AA.

The thing here is, both villain are too loose.

Seat 5 wants to isolate the loose player. What he doesnt know, he is so dominated.

Nice fold for me.

MinhANguyen said:

You are assuming that a 1/2 live player is a solid player lol. 99% of them are donkeys and worse than online 25NL players. I doubt many would be clever enough to be trappy with AA/KK this way.

This is very results oriented. By reshoving, he is representing AK/JJ+. And since there is a shove and reshove, it's almost guaranteed that one or both players are holding one, two, or three of our six outs. And if one of them has a pocket pair, we are crushed. And why would we want to ever stack off with AK for 200BB? That's a really gross spot and very unprofitable, especially given that our outs are going to be blocked by one or both players. Even stacking off with KK 200BB deep is generally going to be a mistake, especially online. Not sure about live, but online that's criminal unless you have a sick read they can stack off 200BB deep without AA.

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lol I didn't ... the guy who posted this thread did

so using what he said if it was true... I came to calling.

Aces2w1n said:

lol I didn't ... the guy who posted this thread did

so using what he said if it was true... I came to calling.

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Yes, I know that OP was the one involved in the hand. OP even mentioned that player 5 is a "solid conservative" player, which is more of a reason to fold. I don't see anywhere that suggests that AK is good here after a 3-bet and cold 4-bet shove for 200bb+. This is almost always KK or AA. It just happens that Seat 5 wa spazzing in this hand. Regardless, it is a good fold. 99% of the times here he has AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK. And we have terrible equity against that range. I don't think you'd advocate calling off like 10% of his bankroll if the results weren't posted to the 3-bet and cold 4-bet jam super deep. This is such a nutted line. Like I said, it's very unlikely we have great equity in this hand because one or both players are probably holding our 1-3 A/K outs, making this even more unprofitable to call. And why would anyone ever want to put 5-10%+ of their bankroll in all-in preflop totally crushed or having fairly low equity. We could have easily have less than 15% equity here, and when we are ahead, which should be almost never, we have way less than 40% equity. We can always find a better spot in a cash game.

I still think villain looks weak and doesnt want action hence he overshoves.. min bet or call would look scarier

But villain shoving will b wider here using his stack as a scare tactic.

Wish i was there live id tell u if he had it or not

My general rule for stacking off at a 1/2 table is:
AKo I'll stack off up to 100bb.
AKs I'll stack off up to 150bb.

In this case, you weren't committed at all (only 12bb) and you were facing a 250bb reshove when you had AKs. You had to fold.

Matthew Southall said:

My general rule for stacking off at a 1/2 table is:
AKo I'll stack off up to 100bb.
AKs I'll stack off up to 150bb.

In this case, you weren't committed at all (only 12bb) and you were facing a 250bb reshove when you had AKs. You had to fold.

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Sometimes guidelines can be dangerous, We think they protect us from losing but they actually stop us from winning.

bilweb07 said:

I'm in a 1-2NL game I play in twice a week. I'm second largest stack with $400. Standard raises for this game run $12-$25. I raise $20 in the CO with AK suited. SB is a loose player with $100 and he shoves all-n. I'm planning to snap call until seat 5, biggest stack with $500 and a solid conservative player, also shoves. I'm not afraid of the SB but I put seat 5 on a big pair, likely KK or AA, knowing how he plays. I fold not wanting to shove AK against what I figure is at least one, and maybe two, big pairs. SB shows AQ off and seat 5 shows KQ off. Neither player improves and I would have scooped the pot if I'd called. My friends at the table call me the biggest nit in the world for folding AK pre flop. I disagree. Thoughts?

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Seems like a relatively simple math question here. If you're reasonably certain villain with the big stack holds KK+ then you fold. I end up making that call against many 1/2 live players, but you appear to be pretty familiar with the player in question and have a read (a read it seems you need to reevaluate).

And because I really doubt it was mentioned yet in this topic, I want to say that making the right moves for entirely the wrong reasons is still playing poorly. If you've made this topic not to find out whether or not you should have folded but to make sure you know how to arrive at your decision and what merits consideration when a similar situation comes up in the future, then you've earned a tip of my hat.

I think fold is right. Seems weird that the pre-flop raises are $12-$25 at 1/2 table. Perhaps wrong stakes?

walleye said:

I think fold is right. Seems weird that the pre-flop raises are $12-$25 at 1/2 table. Perhaps wrong stakes?

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Pretty common in loose 1/2 live games.

WVHillbilly said:

Pretty common in loose 1/2 live games.

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Yup, raise to $17 and K5s flatting from the SB is not too uncommon in live 1/2 games. And yes, i am still salty about that hand.........

WITH A-TO HURRY, I WENT ALLIN,NC AND SINCE YOU PLAYED WITH THESE PLAYERS THEN YOU ARE IN THIS SITUATION KNOW BETTER

@Aces you'd really want two callers with big hands if you had AA/KK?

What if he had QQ here and put you on a strong ace AJ+?

rlzaleski said:

@Aces you'd really want two callers with big hands if you had AA/KK?

What if he had QQ here and put you on a strong ace AJ+?

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Personally, I would flat AA/KK here since both of us are deep. If we were 100-150bb, I'd probably just jam KK and flat AA only. With AA, we do not have to worry about any overcards. With KK, if an A flops, we are either way behind, or we let our opponents realize their equity for free. I flatted AA to a 30bb shove once, and got the original raiser to come along with QJo and spaz with an OESD. Luckily, I did hold

Yeah, I do not see why Aces is adamant that the 4-bet jammer is weak here. He could easily be doing this with JJ/QQ, as he wants to isolate. If I had just 100-150bb, I'd probably jam JJ/QQ/KK/AK. I have no idea why he'd jam KQ for 250bb, but we still can't call here with AK for 250bb. Most players would just shove KK/AA anyway because "OMG I HAVE KK/AA," or they don't want to get sucked out on multiway and just "win it right there."