Low limit guy just sat down

brettstix

brettstix

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Low limit game. Big Blind has just joined the table.

***** Game number #22432730314 *****
Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2008/11/28 7:03:03 ET
Table 'Sigune' 9-max
Seat 4 (BTN) has the button.
Hero posts small blind [$0.05]
BB posts big blind [$0.10]
xXxFloOoWxXx: sits out
Seat 1 : MP1 with $18.35.
Seat 2 : MP2 with $11.20.
Seat 3 : CO with $9.75.
Seat 4 : BTN with $12.10.
Seat 5 : Hero with $11.55.
Seat 7 : BB with $10.00.
Seat 9 : UTG with $10.95.

hand.pl

** Dealing hole cards **
Dealt to Hero :
:9h4: :as4:
Sklansky group: 8
UTG: folds
MP1: folds
MP2: folds
CO: folds
BTN: folds
Hero raises $0.20 to $0.30
BB calls [$0.20]
** Dealing Flop ** [Potsize: $0.6]
:4s4: :4c4: :ah4:
Hero bets [$0.50]
BB raises $1 to $1.50
Hero ???????????
 
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Double-A

Double-A

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Call.

With no read and such a small pot a case could be made for folding, calling, or re-raising. But, folding is weak/tight and 3betting probably folds worse/gets called by better. Try and get a cheap showdown.
 
F Paulsson

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What was your reasoning behind betting the flop?
 
brettstix

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What was your reasoning behind betting the flop?

When the table has folded to me in the small blind I will bet into the big blind 80 percent of the time if holding a reasonable hand.
 
jdeliverer

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When the table has folded to me in the small blind I will bet into the big blind 80 percent of the time if holding a reasonable hand.

betting the flop, not preflop.

I expect you're ahead here most of the time, but it's a very tricky hand to read. I'd try to get a cheap showdown but I could see some big bets on later streets. Still, I'd probably call.
 
F Paulsson

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Preflop is totally standard. It's your bet on the flop that I'm curious about.
 
SusieP

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I understand why you made bet the flop, i used to do that, until i realized that he will tell you if he has hit the set later. No need to test the waters on the flop like that its a play without rhyme nor reason. Your not gonna push him off his 4.
 
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I don't fully understand why the flop bet is being seen so curiously. I understand that you won't get called often, but you will get called by hands that you beat occasionally (underpairs mostly, maybe the occasional high card). Now, obviously you don't have a read as this is the BB's first hand. But you're gonna raise with a large range of hands out of the SB, and you'll C-bet some percent of the time with maybe a suited K or worse (which may well be the best hand if he missed too). And it's possible this reraise is a bluff. Now, I understand betting every time would probably be wrong, but am I wrong that you would indeed bet with some frequency as the "optimal play" in game theory terms?
 
F Paulsson

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I don't fully understand why the flop bet is being seen so curiously. I understand that you won't get called often, but you will get called by hands that you beat occasionally (underpairs mostly, maybe the occasional high card). Now, obviously you don't have a read as this is the BB's first hand. But you're gonna raise with a large range of hands out of the SB, and you'll C-bet some percent of the time with maybe a suited K or worse (which may well be the best hand if he missed too). And it's possible this reraise is a bluff. Now, I understand betting every time would probably be wrong, but am I wrong that you would indeed bet with some frequency as the "optimal play" in game theory terms?
Versus an opponent I play a lot, I will make the occasional deviation from the most profitable play in order to make sure that the profitable play stays profitable.

Versus an unknown, the reason for a play must never be balancing ranges, it has to be profit. So, is it more profitable to check or bet this flop? The OP apparently thought it was more profitable. Or perhaps, and I suspect this is so, didn't think about it at all and just auto-bet because he had top pair. If it's the first case, I want to hear about it. If it's the second, we just found him a leak.
 
C

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Versus an unknown, the reason for a play must never be balancing ranges, it has to be profit. So, is it more profitable to check or bet this flop? The OP apparently thought it was more profitable. Or perhaps, and I suspect this is so, didn't think about it at all and just auto-bet because he had top pair. If it's the first case, I want to hear about it. If it's the second, we just found him a leak.


I'm curious because in most situations (like this one), I would definitely bet the flop. My thought process is that I have top pair and have raised PF so opponent is going to put me on a decent starting hand. When the flop hits and shows an A, opponent should assume I have an A when I bet. If he calls/re-raises, then I can put him on an A too or low-mid PP or the set of 4's (maybe even A4).

If I don't bet the flop, then I won't know where my opponent stands. He could hit just about anything on the turn or river and then I won't know if he's slow playing A's or just hit a crappy pair. I'll probably end up folding even though I have top pair or worse, calling when he has been slowplaying.

So in my mind, I would think betting close to the pot in this case would be a standard move. If I leak the .50c with a pair of A's then so be it. A decent amount of time I will pick up the pot here, at the very least know where I stand.

I could be completely wrong (I'm sure I am), but if this is bad play, can you please elaborate on the strategy you would take?

Check to the showdown if opponent lets me? If he bets pot on turn/river do I call or fold? I am really interested to see how you would play this hand out starting on the flop.
 
c9h13no3

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Being broke is not worth knowing where you stand.

If you learn one thing from this thread, learn this: Betting to know where you stand is never a reason to bet. You bet for 2 reasons, and 2 reasons only. Reason 1: to get worse hands to call. Reason 2: to get better hands to fold.
 
Double-A

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Versus an opponent I play a lot, I will make the occasional deviation from the most profitable play in order to make sure that the profitable play stays profitable.

Versus an unknown, the reason for a play must never be balancing ranges, it has to be profit.

That's so obvious and yet that thought has never occured to me. See, that's why I like hanging out here...
 
F Paulsson

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I'm curious because in most situations (like this one), I would definitely bet the flop. My thought process is that I have top pair and have raised PF so opponent is going to put me on a decent starting hand. When the flop hits and shows an A, opponent should assume I have an A when I bet. If he calls/re-raises, then I can put him on an A too or low-mid PP or the set of 4's (maybe even A4).

If I don't bet the flop, then I won't know where my opponent stands. He could hit just about anything on the turn or river and then I won't know if he's slow playing A's or just hit a crappy pair. I'll probably end up folding even though I have top pair or worse, calling when he has been slowplaying.

So in my mind, I would think betting close to the pot in this case would be a standard move. If I leak the .50c with a pair of A's then so be it. A decent amount of time I will pick up the pot here, at the very least know where I stand.

I could be completely wrong (I'm sure I am), but if this is bad play, can you please elaborate on the strategy you would take?

Check to the showdown if opponent lets me? If he bets pot on turn/river do I call or fold? I am really interested to see how you would play this hand out starting on the flop.
You pose good questions and I think your reasoning is fairly common, so this is probably a good topic to address. Let's make one thing abundantly clear first, though: Opening preflop is totally standard. I don't care who's in the big blind, I'm always opening A9o from the small blind.

Still regardless of who is in the big blind (because we don't know him), we can look at this flop and decide that it's as dry as the Sahara. Some flops hit wide ranges; the only two flops that are dryer than this flop are A-3-3 and A-2-2 rainbow respectively. This is the third dryest flop available, and there are a lot of flops available.

Looking at our hand value, we have top pair with a mediocre kicker. We have no real ways of improving other than spiking a nine or an ace, neither of which constitute outs to the nuts. If we need to improve and do, there's a decent chance that our opponent does too or already has us crushed. Furthermore, the complete lack of draws (barring a very unlikely 5-2, 5-3 and 3-2) makes it so that if WE are the ones who are ahead, then there are very few cards that will improve our opponent's hand. He's drawing to a maximum of 4 outs (gutshot), but more likely 3 (ace with a weaker kicker) or 2 (pocket pair in the hole). In this situation we are said to be "Way Ahead or Way Behind" or "WA/WB."

Now, when I have a decently strong hand but not necessarily one that I'm comfortable getting it all-in with, I like to think like this to help understand why certain lines are better than others for a certain situation:

"If I'm ahead, how many bets can I get out of my opponent?"

What's your answer on this board? Mine is "1". The typical opponent won't put in more than one bet with a worse hand than ours on a board as dry as this one. Some will, sure, there's no denying that. But much as we like to, we can't treat every unknown as a calling station who will stack off with KQo here.

We need to get one bet in, and we have a few ways to do this. One is to bet the flop and give up if he calls/raises. One is to check the flop and bet the turn if he checks back. One is to check/call the flop and check/fold the turn. There are other ways. But of these basic ideas, against an unknown, it's safe to say that checking the flop is the best way to get that one bet in while still ahead. This is because for most opponents

1) bluffing the flop when checked to is relatively common.
2) Calling the flop with air intending to bluff the turn ("floating") is rare.
3) We are expected to bet this flop, so our bet doesn't necessarily represent the ace. He might well bluff-raise this flop to take it away from us, and we can't really call a raise unless we think that he's wild.

So we check the flop, because it will induce a bluff some of the time, and it will make him look us up a bit lighter on the turn when we bet after he checks back the flop ("Hmm, he can't have an ace, because he would have bet the flop"). Some of the times, he'll draw out on us because we gave him a free card, and that sucks. But, some of the time he'll check back the flop and WE draw out on HIM.

Having said all that, I now turn to a completely different perspective to see if we come up with the same conclusion:

There are three overall reasons to bet any flop:

1) As a bluff (T8o on the above flop, for example)
2) For value; to build a pot (77 on a Q-9-7 flop)
3) To protect our hand (66 on a 2-2-5 flop; we're likely ahead but don't want to give a free card to 6 outs)

... and I don't think either of these three apply in this scenario. I'm struggling with this myself a bit, but my new default move on any flop is to check. I only bet when I have a reason to do it. And here, I can't find one.
 
F Paulsson

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I was asked to clarify what I mean by "dry flop":

A dry board, at least in the way I use it (and the way I thought most people do), is one that isn't likely to change with the turn card. Little can happen to this board that will drastically change the outcome of this hand. It is, in short, not a drawy board.

An example of a wet flop would be J-9-8, twotone. The archetype of a dry flop is A-2-2 rainbow.

Do others use the word differently? If so, to mean what?
 
dj11

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Since about half the time I would play T9s pf the same here as I would play this A9, in this case this flop would have fit my preconceived notions of a dry flop if I was playing 9T.

Thanks for that clarification. Sorry for the hijack. It is a term seemingly used a lot with no good definition from what I could find via google. No Wikipedia definition at all. Prior to this my preconceived notion of what dry flop meant was that it didn't help, and didn't offer much opportunity to improve, so bluffing becomes my best bet. Doesn't mean I will, but the flop would have taken my thought process there.
 
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