Live game KcKd

aliengenius · Apr 28, 2007

$1-$2 NL, hundred max. I have $87 in front of me.

Image: very tight. I have seen at the table for two orbits, I have played one hand outside the blinds, on the button (limped w T9o, five limpers in front, seven to the flop).

Table is loose passive. When there is a raise limpers seem to be willing to call just about any amount more.

Five limpers in front, me in the cut off, I look down at KcKd.

Raise to $17. TWO callers-- utg and the highjack seat.

I now have $70, pot is $55.

Flop comes 2h3h4s. Check to me.

I.....??

mischman · Apr 28, 2007

Easy 1/3-1/2 pot bet?

aliengenius · Apr 28, 2007

mischman said:
Easy 1/3-1/2 pot bet?

Then what? Fold to a raise for thirty bucks more?

mischman · Apr 28, 2007

aliengenius said:
Then what? Fold to a raise for thirty bucks more?

Make the bet and play it from there. you should bet 1/2-1/2 pot on the flop.

ChuckTs · Apr 28, 2007

Hell just shove your whole stack in and expect action from probably any flush draw and 55+. Aswell as any 56 or set of course.

alexanderwoo1 · Apr 28, 2007

LOL Chuck. I would shove all-in on the flop put him to the test.

dj11 · Apr 28, 2007

FOLD! U have lost here, and only you haven't realized it yet!

LMAO

aliengenius · Apr 28, 2007

mischman said:
Make the bet and play it from there. you should bet 1/2-1/2 pot on the flop.

Seriously, play it from there?

Ok, bet $25, call, call, Jc on the turn. Checked to you. You have $45 left, pot is $130-- now what? I really think you need to be thinking ahead...

ChuckTs said:
Hell just shove your whole stack in and expect action from probably any flush draw and 55+. Aswell as any 56 or set of course.

That's exactly what I did, first guy had top set, hj had 56d for the straight.

Ok, so I want to analyze the hand a little-- did I bet too little preflop, or not enough? Is the 44 getting implied odds here ($70 left in my stack after the $17 bet)?
Did I put myself in a situation where I had to go broke with the overpair, given the max "short" buy in?
If so, how do I avoid that?

ChuckTs · Apr 28, 2007

With your stack size and the pot that large, I don't think there's any way of getting away from it. You have to bet that flop (value, to protect your hand etc), and any checkraise will give you odds to call.

$17 preflop with 56...yummy.

Dorkus Malorkus · Apr 28, 2007

aliengenius said:
Ok, so I want to analyze the hand a little-- did I bet too little preflop, or not enough? Is the 44 getting implied odds here ($70 left in my stack after the $17 bet)?
Did I put myself in a situation where I had to go broke with the overpair, given the max "short" buy in?
If so, how do I avoid that?

44 wasn't getting implied odds obviously - even if he takes your stack every single time he flops a set he's not getting odds to call preflop (~1/8 chance to flop a set, he is calling for less than 1/5 of the effective stack). Guy with soooooted connectors is obviously a donk too.

Yes, you probably put yourself in a situation where you had to go broke with an overpair here, however it's pretty unavoidable with a 50bb max buyin and a very loose table. Raise less and you get 435968 callers coming along for the ride and you've lost value, raise more and, well, surely even these guys will fold at some point, and you lose value.

To avoid it, don't play loose games with a 50bb max buyin, obviously. Of course, you really don't want to be doing this because the games are so juicy, so it's actually pretty unavoidable. This isn't a bad thing - just remember the next time you get AA and stack a donk who flopped top pair on a 237 board with his A7 sooooooted or something.

aliengenius · Apr 28, 2007

ChuckTs said:
With your stack size and the pot that large, I don't think there's any way of getting away from it. You have to bet that flop (value, to protect your hand etc), and any checkraise will give you odds to call.

$17 preflop with 56...yummy.

What about the small pair? If he knows he will get the rest of my stack, he's making the correct play, right (or no, because he has to worry about any Q, K, or A on the flop giving me the bigger set?)? Is this a situation where we both played it correctly? What about a $12 preflop bet that might allow us to control the pot size? Too little given the five limpers?

aliengenius · Apr 28, 2007

Dorkus Malorkus said:
44 wasn't getting implied odds obviously - even if he takes your stack every single time he flops a set he's not getting odds to call preflop (~1/8 chance to flop a set, he is calling for less than 1/5 of the effective stack). Guy with soooooted connectors is obviously a donk too.

Yes, you probably put yourself in a situation where you had to go broke with an overpair here, however it's pretty unavoidable with a 50bb max buyin and a very loose table. Raise less and you get 435968 callers coming along for the ride and you've lost value, raise more and, well, surely even these guys will fold at some point, and you lose value.

To avoid it, don't play loose games with a 50bb max buyin, obviously. Of course, you really don't want to be doing this because the games are so juicy, so it's actually pretty unavoidable. This isn't a bad thing - just remember the next time you get AA and stack a donk who flopped top pair on a 237 board with his A7 sooooooted or something.

Right, nature of this particular game I guess....
Thanks for the replies. The hand just got me thinking about "thinking ahead" in poker, and how you want your current actions to put you in situations later that are not super tricky, and or call for harder decisions than you would have otherwise have had to make.

Bombjack · Apr 28, 2007

You're calling a shove, so commit yourself and bet $35-40. Or you could just shove yourself. Other players' stack sizes?

If you're beat or get outdrawn, just rebuy.

There are tons of cards you don't want to see on the turn, so don't make it cheap. It's ABC poker but you don't always have to play tricky, just bet your hand.

aliengenius · Apr 28, 2007

Bombjack said:
You're calling a shove, so commit yourself and bet $35-40. Or you could just shove yourself. Other players' stack sizes?

If you're beat or get outdrawn, just rebuy.

There are tons of cards you don't want to see on the turn, so don't make it cheap. It's ABC poker but you don't always have to play tricky, just bet your hand.

I did shove-- other two had me covered. One w top set, one w the flopped straight. Unfortunately I had to leave, no rebuy for me

.

Oh well. I know that I am capable of folding an over pair or tptk in certain situations, and just wanted 1. confirmation that this was not one of them, and 2. there was no other really viable way to play the hand given the nature of the game (loose passive, with only 50x bb max buy-in).

This is just one of those time you have to smile, rebuy, and triple up in the next similar situation (and the next one, and the next one, and...).

joosebuck · Apr 28, 2007

shove or call any shove. i most likely even overcall an open shove + call in front of me in most LPP 1/2 games.

Bombjack · Apr 29, 2007

aliengenius said:
I did shove-- other two had me covered. One w top set, one w the flopped straight. Unfortunately I had to leave, no rebuy for me .

Oh well. I know that I am capable of folding an over pair or tptk in certain situations, and just wanted 1. confirmation that this was not one of them, and 2. there was no other really viable way to play the hand given the nature of the game (loose passive, with only 50x bb max buy-in).

This is just one of those time you have to smile, rebuy, and triple up in the next similar situation (and the next one, and the next one, and...).

Yup, the chances of this happening are low - usually you'll have the best hand, and the pot is large already so you have to go with it. Because the pot is already large, in the long term this is a winning play. If the pot's small, you can probably get away from it, so you don't lose long term either way.

jayneseo · Apr 29, 2007

Good old Seneca XXXX casino poker, loaded with donks where you either walk out rich or walk out poor, depending on your luck. Good luck to you next time, cards will hopefully be better.

aliengenius · Apr 29, 2007

jayneseo said:
Good old Seneca XXXX casino poker, loaded with donks where you either walk out rich or walk out poor, depending on your luck. Good luck to you next time, cards will hopefully be better.

Yep... but in the long run it's money in the bank.

If I come back from vegas with 10k+ I'm going pro...

aliengenius · Apr 29, 2007

Bombjack said:
Yup, the chances of this happening are low - usually you'll have the best hand, and the pot is large already so you have to go with it. Because the pot is already large, in the long term this is a winning play. If the pot's small, you can probably get away from it, so you don't lose long term either way.

Confirm for me that you don't think I can keep the pot small here given the number of limpers in front of me.... (?)

jayneseo · Apr 29, 2007

I've played at Senceca Niagra a few times now and have noticed the closer you are to the cashier the looser the table is. Could just be coincidence but I'm curious, what table were you at?

Bombjack · Apr 29, 2007

aliengenius said:
Confirm for me that you don't think I can keep the pot small here given the number of limpers in front of me.... (?)

Confirmed.

aliengenius · Apr 29, 2007

jayneseo said:
I've played at Senceca Niagra a few times now and have noticed the closer you are to the cashier the looser the table is. Could just be coincidence but I'm curious, what table were you at?

Ha ha ha ha ha.
17 (?), facing out from the cage it would the the second one on your right....

jayneseo · Apr 29, 2007

Going to have to do some more research on the subject

but that sounds about right from my experience.

aliengenius · Apr 29, 2007

Ok, let's get back to talking about how to beat this kind of game...

Just like I played it, wait for a hand, "over TAG" it...

or...?

Is there a way to try to play "small ball" poker here, utilizing your (presumably) better post flop skills... ?

jayneseo · Apr 29, 2007

Post flop skills don't matter much when the donks will call you down with any draw, pair or overcards. TAG is the way to go, you'll get beat sometimes but in the long run its money in the bank.

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