Light 4-bet turns into a hand, Line ok? [100nl 6max]

zachvac

zachvac

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BB: $101.50
UTG: $107.45
MP: $105.50
CO: $58.50
Hero (BTN): $100
SB: $81.45

Pre-Flop: Q
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J
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dealt to Hero (BTN)
3 folds, Hero raises to $3, SB raises to $8, BB folds, Hero raises to $22, SB calls $14

Flop: ($45) Q
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5
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A
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(2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($45) J
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(2 Players)
SB bets $8, Hero calls $8

River: ($61) 5
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(2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $70 and is All-In

I figure turn there's no reason to bet here simply because KK probably would have shoved (although I'd think AK would as well) and I'm pretty much beating anything he'd fold, so no need to turn our hand into a bluff. Turn is money card because barring JJ-QQ (both would need last 2 since one's on the board and we've got one) or AA, we now have the best hand. I don't expect AQ or AJ to be flatting a 4-bet.

In terms of image, I'd been relatively tight, ~21/19 that session, with a high att. to steal but no previous 4-bets, while he was 34/22 and making a ton of plays, att. to steal was 44% and 3-bet was 18%. He was a pretty solid player though. I almost shoved the turn but I wanted to give him a chance to bluff the river, as he was pretty aggressive. I'm not worried about the flush draw but there are a few scare cards that could come. The river bet also was effectively $51.45 into a $61 pot so not a huge overbet.

Mainly my question is the river play, on whether people would just check behind because no worse is calling, or whether they'd bet smaller to get action. If betting smaller are we calling shoves? Also the turn, anyone think that just shoving there or making a small raise is preferable simply because of the scare cards counterfitting our hand or else putting 4 to a straight out there?
 
BelgoSuisse

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I think i like raising the turn better than flatting it. A villain who bets only $8 into a $45 pot on the turn is not going to bluff the river, so you're better off trying to get the money in now, imo.

I don't get why you get so excited about shoving the river. 5d counterfeits your two pairs if villains holds an A, and he could easily convince himself that a missed flush draw is likely enough to justify calling you here.
 
zachvac

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Oh wow, I guess I wasn't even thinking. That could have been quite ugly, woulda been really pissed at myself if I got a call from AK, which was what I was trying to do lol.
 
c9h13no3

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Villain's hand looks a lot like KK or something with showdown value that isn't happy about the board. I like flatting, and weak betting the river. With the 5 on the riv, I think I just check behind.
 
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gns2003

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I like the raise on the turn as well. Such a small bet from villian, may be your last chance to see if there is any more money to be made this hand. I would have checked the river as no hand you can beat is likely to call there. And that paired river card woulda made me turn a bit cautious.
 
C

cAPSLOCK

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You guys are better players than me... I will show how I am weak here. I think there's a lot of reason NOT to shove the river besides kings, but I suppose the villain with AX might be afraid you have AQ and fold? Hmm.

I see your had as marginal after the river... so why not check?

I think smooth calling the turn is fine when the river doesn't gig you like that... but in this case... you can't know until the evil river falls. But slowplaying always carries this risk if you don't have the nuts.
 
c9h13no3

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Why do you guys raise the turn? Do you think worse hands call? For protection?
 
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cAPSLOCK

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Even though I am not exactly one of those guys (I think the call is OKish) I'll answer.

I'm pretty sure the SB is confused and has some half of a hand. This might sound funny, but I would rather send a clear message to clear up any confusion he might have.

I think a decieved villain is better than a confused one.

I want him to feel I have QQ or AQ so I can take his money and not have a counterfeited two pair on the river with a confused villain.

But I am bowing out now... you guys are all sharks, and I am an idiot.

love,
cAPS
 
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Syfted

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BB: $101.50
UTG: $107.45
MP: $105.50
CO: $58.50
Hero (BTN): $100
SB: $81.45

Pre-Flop: Q
diamondnormal.gif
J
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dealt to Hero (BTN)
3 folds, Hero raises to $3, SB raises to $8, BB folds, Hero raises to $22, SB calls $14

Flop: ($45) Q
clubnormal.gif
5
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A
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(2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($45) J
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(2 Players)
SB bets $8, Hero calls $8

River: ($61) 5
diamondnormal.gif
(2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $70 and is All-In

I don't agree with anything you did.

First, the preflop re-raise? Even 6-max, Q-J is relatively weak and a call + bet on flop would have sufficed to get him to throw away his hand if you think he's trying to steal.

Flop play. You checked behind? Why? If you bet and he came over the top with a check-raise, you throw your hand away. If you bet and he called, then you need to proceed with an analysis from there. But I see no reason to check the flop. It provides you with no information about your opponent and leaves you guessing.

You get lucky and turn two-pair. Your opponent leads out with a weak bet of $8 in a $45 pot. You need to *punish him* when he makes those silly bets. And, when you raise him... it provides you with more information, because it sends the action back to him. Does he re-raise, does he call...? Again, these need to be taken in stride. But you elect to call- leaving you COMPLETELY in the dark with an opponent who could draw out on you with a LARGE number of straight and flush draws.

You're a passive player. It's a huge downfall. It provides you with no information about your opponent and allows him to draw out on you.

Unfortunately, your situation is compounded by the fact that, by the turn, he could very well have made his straight. But even if he did, would he really lead out with an $8 bet? If that is the way he would play it, his reaction to a raise would probably be an all-in. You can determine if you're beat really fast by raising on the turn.

Your river play is completely unwarranted. All-in? You have no idea where you stand! I might bet strong on the river, but your poor play on previous streets leaves you in an impossible situation if he comes over the top. I'd probably just check it down, especially because the board paired, and that's very threatening to your two-pair. At least you kept the pot small.

gl on the felt! Some recommended reading would be books by some very aggressive players. I just read Gus Hansen's book (will write a review soon) and he uses aggression to his advantage like no other player. I'd recommend you take it out at the library, it's not a great book to own because there's really no true theory in it... but it changed the way I played poker, for sure.
 
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c9h13no3

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Do you know anything about poker?
 
S

srojitas

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i really dont like that 4-bet preflop if u gonna check on flop... and river u got a bad card... dont like the shove too imo
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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The reason he checks the flop is because all worse hands fold if he bets, and all better hands call. Betting the flop is pretty bad when you're in Way Ahead/Way Behind spot. Its totally standard in cash games.
 
zachvac

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lol to everyone commenting I realize river was bad card now, for some reason while playing I thought it was a blank and that I was still beating AK. That's why I shoved. Nothing that beats me is checking all the way there and AK may call a shove. I was not beating AK however and I looked like an absolute moron, although it does look like I folded out KK or something. So although I actually probably successfully bluffed, it was a horrible play, and I should learn to read boards better.
 
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Syfted

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The reason he checks the flop is because all worse hands fold if he bets, and all better hands call.

Villain will fold a number of hands better should we make a bet. A quirky King-hand will likely not receive a call from a substantial bet. Commonly played hands when shorthanded, like K-Q, K-J, K-10... will all fold. It's just too much money to bet on a gutshot draw.

Weak aces will act likewise.

By betting, we also prevent him from hitting trips on subsequent cards with his mid pocket pair (Eights through Jacks). We would be blindsided by such a card and would have no reasonable defense. We also force out the odd Kh-xh hand that he might have been trying to speculate.

We're representing a big hand! Villain could have easily put us on a strong ace, A-Q, A-K, or even A-J.

If villain calls a good sized bet, we know our hand is no good and give it up. That, at least, is a lot less expensive then having to deal with huge bets on the river!

But... more than anything else, this is a stylistic bet. Betting that flop is a play I would make. It's a play an aggressive player would make. I would bet any flop where I raised that much money preflop and was checked to after the flop. Will that get me into trouble sometimes? Yes... it will. But, it will let me take down pots when neither me nor my opponent hit the flop. It even allows me to take down pots when my opponent hits the flop weakly.

So, c9h13no3, I'd like to hear a more extensive argument for checking the flop. I just don't like that play unless our plan is to check/fold.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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So, c9h13no3, I'd like to hear a more extensive argument for checking the flop. I just don't like that play unless our plan is to check/fold.
A) None of the hands you mentioned are played in a 4-bet pot. Or did you totally miss that preflop.

B) We're not out of position. We're not check/folding. We're checking behind. There's a big difference.

You write a lot, but say very little. Your argument to bet for information, and to keep him from making trips on the turn by drawing to 2 outs is insane.

https://www.cardschat.com/f49/wa-wb-concept-76525/

That thread is required reading, so read it. And while I agree, a 4-bet pot is a pretty atypical WA/WB spot because pot control no longer applies, the principles are the same. Betting only gets us action from hands that beat us.

There is one reason and 1 reason only to bet the flop here: Villain can fold KK/JJ which is a substantial portion of his range. Villain's preflop calling range is probably like TT+, AK at the loosest.
 
BelgoSuisse

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But... more than anything else, this is a stylistic bet. Betting that flop is a play I would make. It's a play an aggressive player would make. I would bet any flop where I raised that much money preflop and was checked to after the flop.

That makes you exploitable.
 
zachvac

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I don't agree with anything you did.

First, the preflop re-raise? Even 6-max, Q-J is relatively weak and a call + bet on flop would have sufficed to get him to throw away his hand if you think he's trying to steal.
But his stealing range still may hit the flop. Also, what happens when he fires a cbet on the flop? All of a sudden we have to invest a ton more. I'm in position, he's got a wide range here and a narrow range will call because in general playing 4-bet pots oop sucks without a monster.
Flop play. You checked behind? Why? If you bet and he came over the top with a check-raise, you throw your hand away. If you bet and he called, then you need to proceed with an analysis from there. But I see no reason to check the flop. It provides you with no information about your opponent and leaves you guessing.
Do you understand the reasons to bet in poker? One is a bluff, and one is a value bet. Obviously there are some places where it's a combination of the two, but you should never bet for information, especially when you're risking a significant portion of your stack. He already has a pretty narrow range, and I believe he's checking this flop with both his monsters and light floats (low pps, SCs maybe).
You get lucky and turn two-pair. Your opponent leads out with a weak bet of $8 in a $45 pot. You need to *punish him* when he makes those silly bets.
Can you explain this more in detail? How is this punishing him? You have yet to talk about his range, what he'd be doing this with, and how my raising would affect the outcome of the hand. You're just saying I need to punish him, and I don't think that's a valid reason to raise.
And, when you raise him... it provides you with more information, because it sends the action back to him. Does he re-raise, does he call...? Again, these need to be taken in stride. But you elect to call- leaving you COMPLETELY in the dark with an opponent who could draw out on you with a LARGE number of straight and flush draws.
Why don't I just shove preflop? If I get called, I'm probably beat. If I get a fold, I win the pot. Rembmer, poker's about maximizing money won, not about getting information. Also, what straight and flush draws does villain have here? All LEGITIMATE draws have minimal outs against me, and I'm not really worried about giving off a free card if a hand is behind me atm (hands like AK don't count simply because I expect them to stack off either street thus when the money goes in is irrelevant to the decision).

You're a passive player. It's a huge downfall. It provides you with no information about your opponent and allows him to draw out on you.
lol, I'm going to ignore this until you can explain to me where the goal of poker is to get information about your opponents' hands.

Unfortunately, your situation is compounded by the fact that, by the turn, he could very well have made his straight. But even if he did, would he really lead out with an $8 bet? If that is the way he would play it, his reaction to a raise would probably be an all-in. You can determine if you're beat really fast by raising on the turn.
But learning that I'm beat serves absolutely no purpose other than to spew off some more money.

Your river play is completely unwarranted. All-in? You have no idea where you stand! I might bet strong on the river, but your poor play on previous streets leaves you in an impossible situation if he comes over the top. I'd probably just check it down, especially because the board paired, and that's very threatening to your two-pair. At least you kept the pot small.
First of all, the all-in is not an overbet, and any semblence of a strong bet would commit me to the pot. I've gone over how I'm a complete moron for not realizing the river paired the board and counterfitted my hand against any A, but I believe if say the river was the 2 instead of the 5, that my play was the correct one.
gl on the felt! Some recommended reading would be books by some very aggressive players. I just read Gus Hansen's book (will write a review soon) and he uses aggression to his advantage like no other player. I'd recommend you take it out at the library, it's not a great book to own because there's really no true theory in it... but it changed the way I played poker, for sure.

I'll look for it, but I somehow doubt that he advocates "betting for information". Aggression has many advantages, and I believe I am a fairly aggressive player. But I know there are times for pot control and there are times when betting simply folds out worse hands and gets better hands to call/shove. It seems this is what you're advocating. We basically turn our hand face up to our opponent and then if they raise we fold. Granted in 3-bet pots here he's probably not bluff shoving, but this attitude towards hands in general will lose you a ton of money in raised pots. No offense, but people who use that philosophy and for example min-raise a flop cbet to "see where they're at" or donk into me for like 1/3 pot after I raised PF on a dry board are where I make a good deal of money. They turn their hand face-up, and regardless of whether I can beat it or not, I can represent a hand that beats it. On the other hand when I have the goods they've given me that extra money. It's win-win :).
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Cardschat is so -EV. If this site and all other poker forums didn't exist, I'd be WAAAAYYYYYY more profitable.

This is good advice you're getting syft, I suggest you really consider it. Betting for "information" is one of the first huge leaks you have to overcome to be profitable.
 
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