KQ to a flop C/R

dbitel

dbitel

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Villain is a good TAG. He's a reg in the game and runs at something like 22/18/3. Hero is also a solid TAG reg and villain knows this. I have a wide button stealing range obviously.

Effective stacks $400. Full tilt 6max, $400NL.

3 folds, Hero raises to $14 with :ks4: :qc4:, SB folds, Villain calls in BB

Flop (2 players, $30): :kc4: :2d4: :2h4:

BB checks, Hero bets $24, BB raises to $77, Hero.......?
 
ChuckTs

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We gotta be ahead here methinks.
AK reraises PF, and any hand with a deuce doesn't call PF. He could have set a weird trap with AA but that's pretty unlikely.

Call and let him think his middle pair or whatever is good enough for a turn bet.

(prepares to get fried for saying the wrong answer......)
 
Bombjack

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I think I re-raise him to about $180 and call a push. He might have AK/AA (tough luck if he did), but I think he pays you off enough with KJ/KT to make this worthwhile. Plus you have a good chance of pushing him of KQ.

As a side note, I'll often check-raise people on King-high flops with nothing, so don't necessarily think he has a King. If you think he'll make a tricky play like this, call, and then push on the turn.
 
ChuckTs

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I think I re-raise him to about $180 and call a push.


This is a solid TAG player we're talking about here; what will he call a $180 reraise with that we have beat? Or push over the top of that raise for that matter?

EDIT: the one thing I do like about reraising is that it might push KQ out of the pot.
 
Bombjack

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Depends on our table image. If we're sufficiently LAGish he might call with a worse King. Also I don't see what the point of just calling is, apart from inducing a bluff on the turn. This probably won't work though, because BB will realise that we have at least KQ to call the re-raise and we're unlikely to fold. There's also about a 10% chance of being outdrawn on the turn, by another 2 (2 outs to split) or whatever his kicker is (3 outs).
 
joosebuck

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if we call here, will he take control with a weaker king/pp/bluff? maybe we call and wait to raise the turn, and fold to a shove?
 
ChuckTs

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This is a solid TAG player we're talking about here; what will he call a $180 reraise with that we have beat? Or push over the top of that raise for that matter?

Depends on our table image.

Here:

Villain is a good TAG. He's a reg in the game and runs at something like 22/18/3. Hero is also a solid TAG reg and villain knows this. I have a wide button stealing range obviously.

By reraising, we're only going to get a call from a hand that beats us, and we'll push out any hands that might throw out a second bullet on the turn (like 99 or KJ-). We could make KQ fold, which like I said would be a great result, but it's pretty unlikely he even has that hand.

Do you really think that if he's going to throw out a solid check-raise like that with a middle PP that he will just check/fold the turn should we call his ch/r? He's not going to give up that easily...
 
bubbasbestbabe

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/me raises hand "Oooh, Oooh, I know what's he got"

No matter what you do he won't fold. He has KQ also and has you figured out like you have him.
 
Bombjack

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Do you really think that if he's going to throw out a solid check-raise like that with a middle PP that he will just check/fold the turn should we call his ch/r? He's not going to give up that easily...

So why not re-raise him now if he's not going to give up?
 
ChuckTs

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...because we want him to keep putting money in while he's behind. That's the purpose of just calling the flop bet; let him think that he might still be ahead with a hand that you have beat so that he keeps betting into you.
 
F Paulsson

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A little off-topic, but would solid NL players ever make this C/R with a hand like TT or another middle PP? I see a crapload of it in limit because when there's a paired board there's little chance (risk) of the stealer actually hitting a piece of it, but I'm not sure how it translates to NL and the increased cost of trying it.
 
Bombjack

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A little off-topic, but would solid NL players ever make this C/R with a hand like TT or another middle PP? I see a crapload of it in limit because when there's a paired board there's little chance (risk) of the stealer actually hitting a piece of it, but I'm not sure how it translates to NL and the increased cost of trying it.
I think it's a pretty good move in NL, since most of the time the raiser won't have AA/KK/AK/KQ and it's very difficult for the raiser to call with anything else, even if they beat what you have. Whereas in Limit, they could call with something marginal and it's not going to get too expensive.
 
joosebuck

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check raise more than bet out. i think a pair is more likely to get checkraised when dealing with an exceptional TAG player like this. standard tag would probably check call and maybe check/fold the turn. lag would bet out.
 
dbitel

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I NL, a good TAG will next to NEVER C/R TT on the flop
 
Bombjack

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What would they do? Check-call? Check-fold? Donk-bet it?
 
dbitel

dbitel

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b,

they would start out by c/c flop and taking it from there. Then maybe c/f the turn vs some and c/c the turn vs others, depending how many barrells they think villain can fire, as its a pretty sweet board to multibarrel
 
F Paulsson

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c/ring TT on this flop from BB would admittedly leave us with a weak hand out of position in a big pot. I can see how that's a problem.

Thanks.
 
dbitel

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FWIW, this isnt a post abotu WAWB, this is a post about hand reading and what to do with your reads
 
Bombjack

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c/ring TT on this flop from BB would admittedly leave us with a weak hand out of position in a big pot. I can see how that's a problem.
It's only a problem if your opponent has a King or AA, which is only a small % of the time. TT is in fact probably too good a hand to do this with, since you are actually beating a lot of his range, and getting him to fold isn't the way to get most value with TT. I'd rather do this with Ax or a low pocket pair that may or may not be the best hand, but at least has some outs. I'm not suggesting this line the whole time, but you need to vary your play. Playing tight ABC poker will only get you so far, and if everyone else is also playing that way you have no edge - you need to add some imagination in. That's not really possible if you're playing 10 tables at once, but I prefer to play 1 or 2 tables and really get to know my opponents. If Villain is such a great player, he will be switching it up and we can't simply take a c/r to mean he has a huge hand. He would probably play KJ this way, for example.

More I think about it, the better a near min-raise (e.g. double his bet to $148) for value looks on this flop.
 
F Paulsson

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If you c/r the flop and get called, what do you do on the turn?
 
A

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paranoid me thinks he has aces. But then hes already got two pairs and shouldnt be too afraid of keeping you in. Way outta my league. when do we get the results :D
 
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