KK facing all in reraise on flop

This should be in the hand analysis thread just for future reference

Based on the SPR this is a no-brainer call.

I would suggest buying in for a full stack though. Also, because of effective stacks your actual ratio is 2 to 3.4

Need anymore detail than this?

I would def. call and reload, that screams set to me, but I would have to see.

Mamushi said:

Based on the SPR this is a no-brainer call.

I would suggest buying in for a full stack though

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^ This.

Except a little more than just a suggestion to buy in for 100bb, if you want to do well at poker, buy in for 100bb. There is absolutely no good reason to buy in for less, buying in short doesn't help BRM, it doesn't give you any edge, in fact it hurts both of those points. You should never start any hand with less than 100bb.


But yeah, short, overpair on the flop, built up pot 3way, easy call. You're behind a lot, but you can afford to lose this one a lot and still have the call be +EV.

He turned out to have what I was hoping for, a pair of 10s. I started 5NL playing with 100bb buyins, but quickly lost 3 buyins and more than half of my (measly) profit from 2NL, so I’ve settled down to 60bb for now where I am more comfortable. I know I probably should be playing at 2NL (I was better than 10BB per 100 hands there compared to less than 1BB per 100 at 5NL, but I am looking to clear my deposit bonuses. After my deadline is past, I’ll go back to 2NL.

First, don't give results so quickly. Give some thought to editing your post.

But this is an absolute instacall. Don't even think about folding a huge overpair like this, on a low, disjointed flop in such a short-handed game at these stakes.

What he had really doesn't matter. Especially when you make a call because of the SPR, you're calling and expecting to lose more often than not, losing a lot of medium pots and winning a couple of big ones.

Also 60bb doesn't in any way help you.

It will lower your winrate and if you're getting your stack in the middle as often as you have to when playing short, your variance will be higher. If you don't get your stack in as much as you should, you will lose in the long run.

Playing with 60bb is making your job harder. I seriously don't think many winning players could achieve a longterm profit in their regular game if they always played at 60bb.

I would keep playing 2NL if I didn't feel comfortable buying in full at 5NL.

Like they said, absolute call. A few more points I'd like to make.

First of all, why are you playing @ 2 NL / 5NL. Seems to me it's much better to learn the game starting at 20 or 25 NL. The games there are soft enough to not get ran over like you would starting at 50NL, but also aggressive enough to get you the feel of cash games and what you need to improve.

Seems to me you're scared of playing, including with this topic. Confidence is a big part of your game, if you're afraid to play you'll make costly errors.
And yeah, buy in at 100BB, always!

thepokerkid123 said:

^ This.

Except a little more than just a suggestion to buy in for 100bb, if you want to do well at poker, buy in for 100bb. There is absolutely no good reason to buy in for less, buying in short doesn't help BRM, it doesn't give you any edge, in fact it hurts both of those points. You should never start any hand with less than 100bb.

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You know, there is actually a strategy to buy in 20BB's at higher levels, wait for TT-JJ+ or AK (and only those) and go all-in. I want to try that someday, for fun and for testing it, when my bankroll will permit.

It can work I think because people don't give short stacks any credit, because most of them are maniacs going all in with their 77 or AJ os. And the beautiful part is you can multi a whole lot of tables when you play that few hands.

I'm thinking this might be a good strategy before moving up in levels, since it will give you a certain image, and it will skew your stats as well, people might view you as a total nit when you do move up in that level and they have those hands in their database, and you can be a TAG/LAG they'd never expect.

I could be very wrong of course, but those are just thoughts that came to me now...

not folding here, u have a lot of your stack in the pot already and there are a lot of- lets say 'donk hands' ur ahead of here. He shoves alot of hands like A9, K9, 98 and also hands like A7. He could also be drawing. and given its 5nl he could have 82o....

ComplexPlaya said:

You know, there is actually a strategy to buy in 20BB's at higher levels, wait for TT-JJ+ or AK (and only those) and go all-in. I want to try that someday, for fun and for testing it, when my bankroll will permit.

It can work I think because people don't give short stacks any credit, because most of them are maniacs going all in with their 77 or AJ os. And the beautiful part is you can multi a whole lot of tables when you play that few hands.

I'm thinking this might be a good strategy before moving up in levels, since it will give you a certain image, and it will skew your stats as well, people might view you as a total nit when you do move up in that level and they have those hands in their database, and you can be a TAG/LAG they'd never expect.

I could be very wrong of course, but those are just thoughts that came to me now...

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What you're describing is called shortstacking - the strategy is slightly more complicated, but not much, than what you've described. There are a few threads around here on the topic - you may want to check those out before implementing this strategy. Couple of quick key points fwiw:

1. It's a high variance strategy, and difficult to build a strong winrate from.
2. Regs loathe ss's.
3. Most of the sites are implementing 30bb minimum buy-ins on standard tables cuz the regs have complained so much (most of the sites now have tables that cater to lower buy-in requirements as well as the normal tables). PS has yet to implement, but many regs are hopeful that they will implement within a month or so.
4. The ss strategy is not optimized, as far as I know, at 30bb bi's.

slycbnew said:

What you're describing is called shortstacking - the strategy is slightly more complicated, but not much, than what you've described. There are a few threads around here on the topic - you may want to check those out before implementing this strategy. Couple of quick key points fwiw:

1. It's a high variance strategy, and difficult to build a strong winrate from.
2. Regs loathe ss's.
3. Most of the sites are implementing 30bb minimum buy-ins on standard tables cuz the regs have complained so much (most of the sites now have tables that cater to lower buy-in requirements as well as the normal tables). PS has yet to implement, but many regs are hopeful that they will implement within a month or so.
4. The ss strategy is not optimized, as far as I know, at 30bb bi's.

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Very interesting. I know nothing about it, just that it exists and the conclusion I drew for myself from the games I've played. I'm glad I was not way off with my own thinking there.

My site has some tables starting from 50NL that have 100BB minimum actually, I think it could make for better games just because when you stack up, you stack up for more.

ComplexPlaya said:

I think it could make for better games just because when you stack up, you stack up for more.

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I don't understand...

ComplexPlaya said:

Like they said, absolute call. A few more points I'd like to make.

First of all, why are you playing @ 2 NL / 5NL. Seems to me it's much better to learn the game starting at 20 or 25 NL. The games there are soft enough to not get ran over like you would starting at 50NL, but also aggressive enough to get you the feel of cash games and what you need to improve.

Seems to me you're scared of playing, including with this topic. Confidence is a big part of your game, if you're afraid to play you'll make costly errors.
And yeah, buy in at 100BB, always!



You know, there is actually a strategy to buy in 20BB's at higher levels, wait for TT-JJ+ or AK (and only those) and go all-in. I want to try that someday, for fun and for testing it, when my bankroll will permit.

It can work I think because people don't give short stacks any credit, because most of them are maniacs going all in with their 77 or AJ os. And the beautiful part is you can multi a whole lot of tables when you play that few hands.

I'm thinking this might be a good strategy before moving up in levels, since it will give you a certain image, and it will skew your stats as well, people might view you as a total nit when you do move up in that level and they have those hands in their database, and you can be a TAG/LAG they'd never expect.

I could be very wrong of course, but those are just thoughts that came to me now...

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Check out what I bolded. I'm pretty sure you misunderstood OP. It is much better to start at 2NL OR 5NL (hes not playing 2/5) than it is to start at 25NL.

Wes747 said:

Check out what I bolded. I'm pretty sure you misunderstood OP. It is much better to start at 2NL OR 5NL (hes not playing 2/5) than it is to start at 25NL.

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Well maybe I'm biased since I never played anything less than 10NL, and that for a very short while.

I played 4NL out of curiosity a bit today, and I still think it's more 'real' at 20NL. And if you play too much at the lowest stakes, aren't you in danger of acquiring some very bad automatisms?

Depends on the money you have to invest in poker though...

ComplexPlaya said:

You know, there is actually a strategy to buy in 20BB's at higher levels, wait for TT-JJ+ or AK (and only those) and go all-in. I want to try that someday, for fun and for testing it, when my bankroll will permit.

It can work I think because people don't give short stacks any credit, because most of them are maniacs going all in with their 77 or AJ os. And the beautiful part is you can multi a whole lot of tables when you play that few hands.

I'm thinking this might be a good strategy before moving up in levels, since it will give you a certain image, and it will skew your stats as well, people might view you as a total nit when you do move up in that level and they have those hands in their database, and you can be a TAG/LAG they'd never expect.

I could be very wrong of course, but those are just thoughts that came to me now...

Click to expand...

Next time you're at the tables and see someone employing a SS 'strategy' go check out their stats at PTR and I will almost guarantee you that they are a losing playing and break even at the very best. There are a couple very successful players that play SS, but even they are breakeven at best with their poker winnings. But when it comes to VIP points and rakeback they end up making a decent amount of money. I know there are some people on pokerstars that are Supernova Elite that are SS'ers but have just played a ridiculous amount of hands and the perks that you get for that compensate way more than their winnings. But for the absolute majority of people, SS'ing is just a terrible terrible thing and I might kill myself before ever employing it, lol.

absoluthamm said:

Next time you're at the tables and see someone employing a SS 'strategy' go check out their stats at PTR and I will almost guarantee you that they are a losing playing and break even at the very best. There are a couple very successful players that play SS, but even they are breakeven at best with their poker winnings. But when it comes to VIP points and rakeback they end up making a decent amount of money. I know there are some people on PokerStars that are Supernova Elite that are SS'ers but have just played a ridiculous amount of hands and the perks that you get for that compensate way more than their winnings. But for the absolute majority of people, SS'ing is just a terrible terrible thing and I might kill myself before ever employing it, lol.

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Most people I've seen get bored of waiting for those big hands and start doing it with questionable hands like 99, AQs etc. Perhaps that's why. I just want to try it for a bit of fun

I don't know what to say about that, playing for rakeback and/or points - you can't improve that way, that's for sure. How much could they make, a few thousand/month I reckon but no 5 figures?

Grunch:
1 - Use this HH converter http://www.handconverter.com/
2 - Buy in for full
3 - Insta snap this off, he rarely has a set and he has a bunch of 9s, overpairs and maybe some straight draws in his range

Send WestVirginia Hillbilly a PM. He has some really good ideas for SS'ers. I think he could point you in the right direction.

cjatud2012 said:

I don't understand...

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Hey, that comment was about min table buy-ins. I was talking about the entraction network that has tables which require a fixed 100BB buy-in to enter...

dg1267 said:

Send WestVirginia Hillbilly a PM. He has some really good ideas for SS'ers. I think he could point you in the right direction.

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I'm not about to start that now, focusing on my 6-max game with 100BB buy-in. Just something I'd like to try in the future, bankroll permitting (it does not now ) for a bit of variation, mostly. But thanks

ComplexPlaya said:

Hey, that comment was about min table buy-ins. I was talking about the entraction network that has tables which require a fixed 100BB buy-in to enter...

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Oh, hahah, I thought you were still talking about the 10BB strategy, and I didn't understand how that could be good. My bad.

dg1267 said:

Send WestVirginia Hillbilly a PM. He has some really good ideas for SS'ers. I think he could point you in the right direction.

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Haha, yep. Specifically: "Mommas don't let your babies grow up to be SSers."

absoluthamm said:

Haha, yep. Specifically: "Mommas don't let your babies grow up to be SSers."

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I would be in fear of a set but as everyone said instant call here for me.