KK against Massive raise?

JAMILE1

JAMILE1

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KK against Massive raise on a trip Board?

pokerstars Game #6722496447: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/10/22 - 00:17:12 (ET)
Table 'Miram III' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: szilicili ($12.45 in chips)
Seat 2: Fenn2kb ($4.95 in chips)
Seat 3: olfishnfool ($20.55 in chips)
Seat 4: Aldreas ($46.35 in chips)
Seat 5: kala5583 ($69.40 in chips)
Seat 6: pfsbulldawg ($15.10 in chips)
kala5583: posts small blind $0.10
pfsbulldawg: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to kala5583 [Kd Kh]
szilicili: folds
Fenn2kb: folds
olfishnfool: calls $0.25
Aldreas: raises $1 to $1.25- This dude is a maniac, lots of uncalled raises and takin um down
kala5583: calls $1.15
pfsbulldawg: folds
olfishnfool: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [Th Ts 8c]
kala5583: checks
olfishnfool: checks
Aldreas: bets $3
kala5583: calls $3
olfishnfool: folds
*** TURN *** [Th Ts 8c] [Td]
kala5583: checks
Aldreas: bets $6
kala5583: raises $6 to $12
Aldreas: raises $30.10 to $42.10 and is all-in
kala5583: ????????
 
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robwhufc

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What hand would he have gone all-in over the top of you with with? A ten? definately. AA almost certainly. An 8? Probably (hoping you had AK or AQ). A pocket pair? Probably. Total trash hoping you'd fold? Possibly.

You're getting roughly 2/1 odds for your money (pot is $57 you need to put in 30 more). It screams that he's got the 4th 10, but he could have one of the other hands. I'd call - i'm definately a calling station, but i cant stand the thought i've been bluffed, and that's a bluffer's board.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Umm, reraise preflop?
 
bubbasbestbabe

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Only two hands can beat you. You have to call.
 
ChuckTs

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Ya you gotta reraise PF with that. If he's a maniac, you don't want him to see a cheap flop with say AT in this situation. Not only that, but you're letting others see a flop with decent odds if you just smooth-call. Punish the fool :D

BTW I call his all in with your hand. Like BBB said, only two hands that beat you: 10x and AA, and neither are very likely.
 
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You have to reraise preflop. The fact that he is a maniac makes me want to raise more because he will prbly call with any 2 random cards.

In this situation i would go all in.
 
Bombjack

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In the original poster's defence, sometimes the best way to deal with a maniac is to conceal the strength of your hand and let the maniac hang himself. When he does, as it looks like he has here, you just call him down. Maniacs always represent big hands so don't worry too much about that.

I'd say there's a strong possibiliy he has the final ten or Aces, but you're ahead of his range. You'd have to be 65%+ certain you're behind to fold this... I think you're probably ahead though, so I'd call.

A priori, the chances someone else has AA when you have KK at a 10-seat table are around 2% - so pay that one off. And the chance the case 10 is in his hand is around 4%. So total around 6% you're beaten against a random hand. Of course when someone's betting big on a flop like this, that chance goes up. But it's still worth a risk I think. You've got to gamble to win. What more do you want him to do, get a manservant to bring his money in on a silver plate?
 
JAMILE1

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Bombjack said:
In the original poster's defence, sometimes the best way to deal with a maniac is to conceal the strength of your hand and let the maniac hang himself. When he does, as it looks like he has here, you just call him down. Maniacs always represent big hands so don't worry too much about that.
Click to expand...


Exactly my thinking, though I know seriously flawed;)
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Bombjack said:
In the original poster's defence, sometimes the best way to deal with a maniac is to conceal the strength of your hand and let the maniac hang himself. When he does, as it looks like he has here, you just call him down. Maniacs always represent big hands so don't worry too much about that.
Click to expand...

Except that by not reraising preflop you will often find yourself facing awkward decisions not dissimilar to this if the maniac's tendencies continue postflop.

Taking this example, reraise preflop and unless villain is an idiot we can remove Tx (except possibly AT) from his range. Along with the extra money in the pot this makes our call far easier.

In the example having called preflop it's still a call, but a far more awkward one.

Oh, check-minraising the turn is awful too (check-minraising generally is).
 
JAMILE1

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This is the rest of the hand played out ;), and thanks for the feedback gang points well taken, but the way that dude was playing and the hands that went to showdown I just had a feeling he had diddly squat;)


Aldreas: raises $30.10 to $42.10 and is all-in
kala5583: calls $30.10
*** RIVER *** [Th Ts 8c Td] [4h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
kala5583: shows [Kd Kh] (a full house, Tens full of Kings)
Aldreas: mucks hand
kala5583 collected $91.20 from pot
Aldreas said, "heh"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $94.20 | Rake $3
Board [Th Ts 8c Td 4h]
Seat 1: szilicili folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Fenn2kb folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: olfishnfool folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Aldreas (button) mucked [6h 5h]
Seat 5: kala5583 (small blind) showed [Kd Kh] and won ($91.20) with a full house, Tens full of Kings
Seat 6: pfsbulldawg (big blind) folded before Flop
 
buckster436

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Great Jamile, nice win,, i was just at Fulltilt, the guy before me went allin, i called with Pocket Aces, he had 8d 7d > he flopped a straight and Busted my AA,, my oh my thats poker,LOl,>>>>>>> buck:cool:
 
Bombjack

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Nice win... I don't think he'd have donked off his chips to you if you'd re-raised pre-flop to represent such a strong hand as you had, so well played.
 
ChuckTs

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Bombjack said:
Nice win... I don't think he'd have donked off his chips to you if you'd re-raised pre-flop to represent such a strong hand as you had, so well played.
Click to expand...

True, but I bet you'd be saying 'you should have reraised PF' had our opponent hit trips with his weak hand. Reraising PF is still essential here (ignore results!)
 
Bombjack

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ChuckTs said:
True, but I bet you'd be saying 'you should have reraised PF' had our opponent hit trips with his weak hand. Reraising PF is still essential here (ignore results!)
Click to expand...

What is the purpose of the the re-raise? You seem to be saying it's risky to be playing against what might not be a big hand. E.g. he's playing 65 suited and the flop could come 5-5-T. So the re-raise would be to get him to fold pre-flop. If you're successful, great, you've won $1.50. Even if he calls, he knows you've got a premium hand and he's not putting any more money in unless he hits the flop for 2 pair+ or a massive draw (in which case you're in big trouble anyway).

The reasons I normally re-raise with KK are to isolate and for value. Here you're at a 6-seater table and two of those players have already folded, so isolation is less important.

Regarding value, as already mentioned, this guy is less likely to get his chips in if you're telling him you have a monster hand. You have to play the players. A maniac is going to throw their chips whenever someone doesn't appear to be very strong.

I'm not saying that re-raising is wrong here is general, but against this sort of player just calling when they've already raised can be more profitable.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Even if he calls, he knows you've got a premium hand and he's not putting any more money in unless he hits the flop for 2 pair+ or a massive draw (in which case you're in big trouble anyway).
Click to expand...
Look at the turn action in the OP. Note how hero showed strength, and captain donkalot got all his chips in drawing dead. Now repeat what you just said - does it sound a little silly? Check-calling a paired flop before check-raising (albeit minraising) the turn isn't a "big show of strength"? And yet villain proceeds to donk off his stack here and you're trying to tell us that villain is somehow averse to putting money in without a big hand after a show of strength? Err, doesn't compute. :p

Yeah, I'm operating in a vaccum devoid of reads barring this hand, but in the absence of any more info in the OP it's all I have to go on. There is very little reason to disguise your hand against an opponent who just about knows he has two pretty matching cards himself, and isn't paying any attention to you.

Raise preflop, get more money in while you're 99% sure you have the best hand because you won't be 99% sure you still do after most flops against a maniac's raising range.
 
ChuckTs

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Bombjack said:
What is the purpose of the the re-raise? A: see dorkus' quote. You seem to be saying it's risky to be playing against what might not be a big hand. E.g. he's playing 65 suited and the flop could come 5-5-T. So the re-raise would be to get him to fold pre-flop. If you're successful, great, you've won $1.50 - remember he's LAG - he will call with lesser hands. A reraise doesn't necessarily mean pushing him out, but at least betting enough to make a call by him wrong odds-wise. Even if he calls, he knows you've got a premium hand and he's not putting any more money in unless he hits the flop for 2 pair+ or a massive draw (in which case you're in big trouble anyway). This is 25NL. I've seen countless players call reraises with 67 thinking they're Texas Dolly himself, and call down bottom pair thinking that they're up against two unpaired high cards. You might not get paid off like Kala did in this example, but you will still make a decent profit.

The reasons I normally re-raise with KK are to isolate and for value. Here you're at a 6-seater table and two of those players have already folded, so isolation is less important.

Regarding value, as already mentioned, this guy is less likely to get his chips in if you're telling him you have a monster hand. You have to play the players. A maniac is going to throw their chips whenever someone doesn't appear to be very strong. I can think of a million times I've shown considerable strength only to be called down with a tiny pair or some other trash.

I'm not saying that re-raising is wrong here is general, but against this sort of player just calling when they've already raised can be more profitable.
Click to expand...

All you're saying is basically that a rope-a-dope strategy can win you more chips - and I agree. Though of course there is risk in doing this. Factor in the fact that not only is villain's (LAG) hand range very large, and letting him see a cheap flop can lose you a large pot with his disguised hand, but there's also another player to act (limper). You don't want AJ or whatever he's holding to get to see a cheap flop either.

Were it heads up and I had a very good read on my opponent, I might then consider the rope-a-dope to be a more viable tool in that position, but with two more players to act behind you, I raise here.

Dorkus Malorkus said:
Raise preflop, get more money in while you're 99% sure you have the best hand because you won't be 99% sure you still do after most flops against a maniac's raising range.
Click to expand...

^^^What he said :)
 
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loopmeister

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Another reason to raise PF - to sweeten the pot. The maniac is calling regardless, so get your chips in before the flop. Presumably even maniacs fold to disastrous flops (this specific case notwithstanding). Much of the time you'd have won the pot after this flop fell, so PF raise is more profitable imho.

But congrats on having this guy try and bluff you out of a monster. It really sweetens the taste of all those other time where it *didn't* go right (like flopping 22J to my pocket twos and have everyone check/fold to you - as happened to me the other night :) ).
 
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