KK with a interesting flop

(sorry no HH)

I just did not know what to do here .......

I get K's, and raise 4.5xBB from UTG+1. Get one caller.

Flop comes A A A.

Great, but wtf was he calling me with? Easy to guess AK or AQ.

I check post flop as does he.

Turn is blank, I check. He makes a small bet, about 1/2 pot. I call.

River is another blank, I check again. He makes another small bet and I call.

He shows QQ.

I was stumped on how I should have bet this, whether or not to lead out, whether or not to put in a healthy raise on any street. He has that case A and I'm toast holding my big bad nut boat.

Advice?

Open shove all in on the flop. Zeebo theorum: no one can fold a full house.

c9h13no3 said:

Open shove all in on the flop. Zeebo theorum: no one can fold a full house.

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(I should have told you stacks were the same)

I'm a total wuss then, because all I could see was him turning over that freakin A to destroy me.

I ADMIT IT. If he shoved, that cursor would have been hovering over that fold button, and I would have been praying for a merciful heart attack to end it all before I had to make the decision.

These pokers can be tough.

c9h13no3 said:

Open shove all in on the flop. Zeebo theorum: no one can fold a full house.

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I don't know about this ^^, but you can expect to be looked up by QQ-10's and possibly lower. So in that instance you are ahead of the majority of his range, you are only worried about the 4th A.

Yesterday in fact I ran into a similiar hand in that I flopped trips and made quads on the end. The villian ended up have KK and lost his stack, but he was ahead of so many of my likely holdings I couldn't fault him for it.

I'd keep value betting it the whole way. I think your best value against lower pairs is to keep them on the receiving end, rather than counting on them to bet. I'm not too worried about the ace. If he's shoving on the flop, I'm going along with him, because QQ or JJ might take that line and I don't think I've ever seen anyone other than myself jam the pot with quads. I suppose it's possible to fold KK here, like if he flat calls you on the flop and turn and then raises all-in on the river. You'd have to be pretty deep stacked for that fold, though.

EDIT: Another point I almost forgot. Usually, a given Ax hand is more likely than a given pair, but that's not true with 3 aces on the flop. QQ or JJ is more likely than AK or AQ. So I'd think he has a pocket pair a large majority of the time.

I would've played the hand the same way you did. Check/call down. If you come out firing and he cold calls you the whole way, you'll lose a lot more chips if in fact he has made quads. Also, since you are acting first, if you bet and he for some odd reason raises you, he could be betting quads in a way you wouldn't expect him too, thus no longer putting him on that hand. Who's gonna try and push you out of a pot when they flop quads? That would be called getting outplayed. If you're not sure what to do in a situation, or think you might be crushed but just HAVE to pay to see it, then slow play and try to make it as cheap as possible. He might only value bet figuring you have nothing and will be pushed out easy.

EDIT: Another point I almost forgot. Usually, a given Ax hand is more likely than a given pair, but that's not true with 3 aces on the flop. QQ or JJ is more likely than AK or AQ. So I'd think he has a pocket pair a large majority of the time.[/quote]

Also true, not many people will just call a preflop raise with AK or AQ, especially suited. I'm actually surprised you didn't get reraised once with QQ preflop. However, for 4.5xBB, some suited A9 and down would be very possible. So I still say you played the hand correctly.

I'd play close to same way

I think you played the hand pretty well. When he bets half the pot on the turn, he's either looking for you to come over the top (if he has the Ace) or trying to take the hand down right there hoping you are scared of the board. (if he has a decent pocket pair or squat)
Since you smooth called and he checked on the river, I think you can make a thin value bet on the river, or just check behind. The fear is that he will come barreling over the top on the river if you make a value bet, but at that point it would be clear that he has the case Ace.
When a player has one card to quads, it is harder to get value out of them as opposed to a pocket pair hitting quads, especially when another player hits a full house...
therefore I think the half pot bet on the turn indicates some caution, rather than a value bet.
Someone who has the "Case Ace" would wait until the river to get value most of the time, in hopes that his opponent will fill out the Zeebo theorem in some fashion and be willing to committ his stack.

http://captzeebo.supok.net/2006-02-12.html

The only thing I would have done differently would be a thin value bet on the river of like one-third of the pot. Because if he has a decent pocket pair like he did, he will likely be willing to call and you can make a little more money, without much risk.

I think most people should be happy getting some decent value out of powerful hands like AA, KK, or QQ rather than getting itchy to stack someone. <<you came out on top and unscathed on a sticky board......in those cases its much better to err on the side of caution.........plus checking on the river and getting to see his cards can also be valuable information.

Hello,
I think you played it perfectly. Having lost that exact hand to Quad Ace's.
Had I played as you did, I would have stayed in the game.
Only i pushed all in thinking was golden......BOY was i wrong.

Bearcat

i think you played real well, i mean its unlikely that he has the A.. but again.. possible... and if u raise, i think he would still be capable of coming over the top of you cause he aint putting u on that A...

so i think cautiously but well played...

Oh man oh man. Bet every street and call shove for any amount on any street. Some of the "advice" given here is just awful.

Either bet out or call, you are commited all-in either way. I like yr rope-a-dope approach here tho.

I like the approach too maybe a raise on 5th street though. I mean if your 2nd nuts gets beaten by quads just call it an unlucky night and leave! I mean your going to get beat every now and then. Don't let the worry of losing take away from capitalizing on great hands!

feitr said:

Oh man oh man. Bet every street and call shove for any amount on any street. Some of the "advice" given here is just awful.

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Cautious play isn't always bad. Especially when you're talking life or death situation in a tourney. And some of the "advice" given here as acknowledging his decision to remain alive in the tourney. Unless you are short stacked or are certain you have your opponent beat, there's no reason to risk all your chips. Some people try to win these tournaments by playing good poker. As annoying as he is, watch Hellmuth from time to time. I can't stand him, but he does make some amazing laydowns/play a hand weak when he knows he's beat.

Unless you know the person, if they shove the river, even if it's an overbet to the pot, this should be an easy muck. Just because you have 2nd nuts doesn't mean you HAVE to call.

Makwa said:

Either bet out or call, you are commited all-in either way. I like yr rope-a-dope approach here tho.

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How is he committed all-in either way? He bet 4.5xBB preflop, then called half pot on the turn. Nowhere near committed to go all in. If he wanted to see the cards, the guy would show quads guaranteed (at least 99% of the time). If he doesn't show, then oh well, you folded a winner that didn't cost you too much. Just because you lose a hand or fold a hand doesn't mean you lost the tourney. You'll have at least a few thousand more hands to play (with a huge field lol).

bombomb said:

I like the approach too maybe a raise on 5th street though. I mean if your 2nd nuts gets beaten by quads just call it an unlucky night and leave! I mean your going to get beat every now and then. Don't let the worry of losing take away from capitalizing on great hands!

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Agreed 100%. Besides, betting on that last round, if he has quads, he raises. If he has b@ll$ with nothing or a weaker hand, he raises. With his hand, as it turned out at least, I could say maybe a moderate raise, but more than likely just a call to pay you off. 3rd nuts probably wouldn't fold to a value bet, and I doubt they'd raise with that board.

I would say insta call / push / all in . But with the volume of quads I have been seeing lately ( on fulltilt ) I am not sure what I would do there . All I know is I am not folding to any raise. I take that back .. the small raise on the river makes me want to push it all in.

I think you played it well all around. I would have to give him credit for the J's -Q's , but like you mention there is the slightest chances he holds the case A. If that was the case, he would have most if not all of my stack depending on what type of player he was.

feitr said:

Oh man oh man. Bet every street and call shove for any amount on any street. Some of the "advice" given here is just awful.

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Man, I feared that last A.

And that's probably the crux here, I went directly to defense instead of offense as you suggest.

I keep going back to my Poker Mindset book, and I think (in this case) the fear of seeing that A factored into my decision when maybe it shouldn't have.

Thanks to all for the ideas and advice.

You have the 2nd nuts, villain has quads here VERY VERY rarely. Bet and get it in and ignore like 90% of the posts in this thread as they are ridiculous.

If you lose with kings full of aces absolutely no problem, but if you have the 2nd nuts and are scared to get the money in that is a huge leak. Basically what i am saying is that if villain has quads here it is a giant cooler and you should be getting stacked everytime...the problem is when you play so weak tight postflop that you miss incredible value.

feitr said:

You have the 2nd nuts, villain has quads here VERY VERY rarely. Bet and get it in and ignore like 90% of the posts in this thread as they are ridiculous.

If you lose with kings full of aces absolutely no problem, but if you have the 2nd nuts and are scared to get the money in that is a huge leak. Basically what i am saying is that if villain has quads here it is a giant cooler and you should be getting stacked everytime...the problem is when you play so weak tight postflop that you miss incredible value.

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As difficult as the hand was to grasp at the time, this makes sense.

(i thought he had that damn A though ........)

feitr said:

You have the 2nd nuts, villain has quads here VERY VERY rarely. Bet and get it in and ignore like 90% of the posts in this thread as they are ridiculous.

If you lose with kings full of aces absolutely no problem, but if you have the 2nd nuts and are scared to get the money in that is a huge leak. Basically what i am saying is that if villain has quads here it is a giant cooler and you should be getting stacked everytime...the problem is when you play so weak tight postflop that you miss incredible value.

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Now that I think about it, the way he played it may have represented that HE had the case ace. However, technically he did NOT have 2nd nuts. AK, AQ, AJ, AT, A9, A8, A7, A6, A5, A4, A3, and A2 are all possible hands that would beat him. Granted the first 3 listed here are unlikely because he probably would have been reraised preflop, but still. That's 12 hands that could possibly beat him. You can't say AX is the nuts as one hand. That's 12 different combinations thus making KK the 13th best possible hand with this board. This situation all comes down to your read. You sit back, analyze the hand, put your opponent on a hand, and THEN make your decision on what to do. If you decide in your mind that he has an ace (doesn't matter if he does or not) then assume he has the ace and play the hand accordingly. If it's kept cheap enough, which it was, you can afford to pay off small value bets to see if he in fact had quads. If it's too expensive (more than likely on the river) then it's OK to fold. Your not pot committed to where you HAVE to call a heavy river and even if you ARE pot committed, if you believe you're beat, why call? Like I said, make a read and play your hand according to what you put him on. If your preflop with KK and in your mind you're convinced the all in in front of you has AA would you still call? You could, but it would be the wrong move.

Btw, the posts on this thread have the intention of helping advise a player to win. No need to risk everything if you could possibly have no outs to draw to off the flop. The way he played the hand showed great patience AND self control. Smart guys like you will one day be in that situation one day and get knocked out by the quads by playing your "2nd nuts" (as you put it). Just because the odds of something happening are low, does NOT mean they don't happen. 2008 wsop Main Event, guy got knocked out on day one with quad aces.

Yea you shoulda atleast check raised the turn to see because the chances are that he don't got that case ace and 3 of them hit on the flop. almost impossible.....