just to show it i guess

poker stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.02/$0.05
7 players
Converter
Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is MP1 with 8♥8♠
UTG raises to $0.15, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, SB raises to $0.25, BB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.
Flop: 5♣4♣8♣ ($0.8, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $1.5, Hero raises all-in $4.97, SB folds, UTG calls.
Turn: 3♠ ($10.74, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $10.74)

River: 8♦ ($10.74, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $10.74)

Results:
Final pot: $10.74

I have to say it - this isn't the best place to push.
It's likely your trips are ahead, but with 3 clubs, I'm willing to bet your caller had two more.

I think you got lucky on this one (although, if there had been two clubs on the flop, I like this play a lot).

zebranky said:

I have to say it - this isn't the best place to push.
It's likely your trips are ahead, but with 3 clubs, I'm willing to bet your caller had two more.

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Probably not. With a set and all clubs on the board. I would push too and try to scare away the straight and flush chasers. Would someone chase a flush or straight for $5 in a microlimit game? I doubt it.

zebranky said:

I have to say it - this isn't the best place to push.
It's likely your trips are ahead, but with 3 clubs, I'm willing to bet your caller had two more.

I think you got lucky on this one (although, if there had been two clubs on the flop, I like this play a lot).

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So you'd rather cold-call for >1/4 of your stack and let people draw out with top set?

yea dude even if hes not drawing to Kc or Ac (most likely) and lucked into 2 clubs, you are still 27% to redraw the fh. PUSH BITCH

I still don't like the math here;
Lets assume he has 2 clubs, and you're all-in on the set.
You're about 35% to win, he's about 65% (try it on a hand simulator).
You're behind. You still have a bunch of outs, but obviously an all-in isn't best here.

Assume he has one club even:
With the all in, the pot is 7.30 or so, and he only needs to put in 3.50 to call. he's getting 2:1 on his money, and his odds of hitting are around 35%, so he's getting odds to call just for the flush.


in other words, any flush potential hand is going to call, and in the long run, be ahead of you.

Any other hand (eg, TPTK, two pair, smaller set) is WAY behind, and you can let them trap themselves into the all-in on later streets.

God, I really hate to say it, but this is what a certain person I know calls your WAWB situation, and he'd be right!

See bold.

zebranky said:

Assume he has one club even:
With the all in, the pot is 7.30 or so, and he only needs to put in 3.50 to call. ONLY 3.50? On a .02/.05 table?!!

he's getting 2:1 on his money, and his odds of hitting are around 35%, so he's getting odds to call just for the flush. And you have a 65% chance of winning. The odds are in your favor.

in other words, any flush potential hand is going to call. LOL! What about 2c, 9c?

Any other hand (eg, TPTK, two pair, smaller set) is WAY behind, and you can let them trap themselves into the all-in on later streets. Providing the do have the flush. You really going to fold a set?!! Three clubs on the board is a scary flop so you should take the pot there.

God, I really hate to say it, but this is what a certain person I know calls your WAWB situation, and he'd be right! What's WAWB?

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see blue bold.

t1riel said:

Originally Posted by zebranky

Assume he has one club even:
With the all in, the pot is 7.30 or so, and he only needs to put in 3.50 to call. ONLY 3.50? On a .02/.05 table?!! he already put in 1.50 (or 2x pot) on the flop, it's not that much

he's getting 2:1 on his money, and his odds of hitting are around 35%, so he's getting odds to call just for the flush. And you have a 65% chance of winning. The odds are in your favor. True. My point is any decent flush draw is still calling. In any case, without a read, I still think the only hand I would bet that heavily on is two low/mid clubs, protecting from a bigger flush.

in other words, any flush potential hand is going to call. LOL! What about 2c, 9c? sorry, I was not precise here. any decent potential flush draw. (say, Qc or better)

Any other hand (eg, TPTK, two pair, smaller set) is WAY behind, and you can let them trap themselves into the all-in on later streets. Providing the do have the flush. You really going to fold a set?!! Three clubs on the board is a scary flop so you should take the pot there. Nope, provided they don't have the flush. of the above hands, only TPTK is possible if they have even one club. No, I'm probably not folding a set until a club comes on the turn. And even then, I think I might bluff the turn (because I pick my opponent on two low/middle clubs)

God, I really hate to say it, but this is what a certain person I know calls your WAWB situation, and he'd be right! What's WAWB?
A long argument I'm having about how to apply a certain theory of slowplaying - it's in the statgy section if you wanna go there.
quote]

just a thought - the argument to push out the drawing hands is not a bad one, but considering that a made flush and a made straight are already possible, I think its a risky way to play.
And consider this. for the turn, we have 7 outs (case 8 or pair the board), for the river, 10 outs. Compare this to 8 for OESD or 9 for FD, and its not like drawing puts you at a huge disadvantage.

Maybe its just that I don't like committing all my chips on this one (I agree if you're going to raise, it's a push), with a board that already has two potential better hands out there.

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they need 3:1 to make their draw call correct, so in the long run they are behind.

for the record, villian had [Ah][As]. I pushed because i put him on a big pair, and the other guy on a potential flush draw...i knew i was ahead on the flop. I do admit i was chanting in my head "pair the board...pair the board..."

weird, i initially thought SB might have a high pair without a club that he would have folded.

This is definitely not a WAWB situation. You're about a 2:1 favourite over someone with a single club in their hand... that's definitely not "well" ahead. On the other hand, against a made flush, you still have a lot of outs, so you're not well behind. You need to push this flop to make the club overcards pay or fold. You don't really mind which. Calling is the worst unless you really want to gamble, keep the player behind in and push the turn if it's not a club.

God, I really hate to say it, but this is what a certain person I know calls your WAWB situation, and he'd be right!

Click to expand...

Umm no it isn't because there's an absolutely huge range of hands that aren't way ahead or way behind us. You posted them in the same post.

Calling off 1/3 of your stack here is not feasible. Seriously, it's just ridiculous. You are ahead of villain's range, many hands in villain's range that are behind you will have to call because of odds, you want to see both remaining cards and you don't want to have to deal with the possibility of a huge scare card for you (club) hitting on the turn.

I don't think you're understanding that if villain has AcX, then yes, it may be correct for him to call our shove (I dunno if it actually is treating it as a pure pot odds problem - I haven't done the maths), but it's also correct for us to push and charge him as much as we can for the privilege.

Dorkus Malorkus said:

Umm no it isn't because there's an absolutely huge range of hands that aren't way ahead or way behind us. You posted them in the same post.

Calling off 1/3 of your stack here is not feasible. Seriously, it's just ridiculous. You are ahead of villain's range, many hands in villain's range that are behind you will have to call because of odds, you want to see both remaining cards and you don't want to have to deal with the possibility of a huge scare card for you (club) hitting on the turn.

I don't think you're understanding that if villain has AcX, then yes, it may be correct for him to call our shove (I dunno if it actually is treating it as a pure pot odds problem - I haven't done the maths), but it's also correct for us to push and charge him as much as we can for the privilege.

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this is exactly what went through my head. If i'm behind to a made flush, i'm PROBABLY going to lose my stack anyways, and if he's got the ace or king of clubs, i'm going to make him pay everything he has to see the fourth one....i was relatively sure that utg had a big pair, as he was actually a decent player in terms of preflop play... his flop play was not that good, but preflop was a solid player. In any case, i guessed correctly, and the board paired

on my own again.

hmm... re-reading most of my arguments, I realize I'm just trying to justify the fact that I would assume the opponent to have two small/mid clubs given his bet, and everything else is in the details. Now that I look back at the PF, that doesn't seem likely, given his UTG raise.

I'll fold my argument on this one. I'm going to pay more attention, really.

Incidentally - with the push - how many people in here if they were UTG with AA would make the call?
I think I would be cursing, yelling, and calling with the dread feeling I was behind but unable to let my Aces go...

with AA if I had the club, its an auto-call....i'd *PROBABLY* go broke here as well, although, depending on certain things i might be able to lay it down.....

however, i would have played preflop better, instead of calling the second raise from the SB, i would have reraised. The point of AA is to get the money in and get as many hands out as you can...as Doyle Brunson said, AA you're usually going to win a small pot, or lose a big one - i probably raise to .65 here preflop. had he reraised around that, its probable i fold my hand, i am not going against a raiser, re-raiser, and a reraise from the inititial raiser with [8s][8h]. Granted, when the flop comes i'd be screaming that i didn't maek the call.

anyhow, thats how i play aces, i try and get my money in when its good...no room to second guess myself when the flop comes 458 of clubs. I know that i'm a huge favorite against 2 opponents, so i'm going to maximize that by jamming the pot.

zeb,

like tohers have said, this is NOT a WA/WB situation. We are NEVER way behind here (always have at least 35% equity) and vs clubs, we're not way ahead either, as they have 29% equity or w/e.

I know you've now realised that pushing is best, but there was something you said that disturbed me, so I thought I'd correct you if thats ok:


"Assume he has one club even:
With the all in, the pot is 7.30 or so, and he only needs to put in 3.50 to call. he's getting 2:1 on his money, and his odds of hitting are around 35%, so he's getting odds to call just for the flush.


in other words, any flush potential hand is going to call, and in the long run, be ahead of you."

This is WRONG. Yes a flush draw should call (if you say so...i havent done the maths). HOWEVER, that doesn't mean he comes out ahead of us in the long run. Think intuatively how wrong that sounds/feels. He just put all his stack in on a flush draw and you think he comes out ahead?

If your maths is right, sure he is making a +EV decision (so we'd rather him fold) but the point is, our decisions this hand have been WAY more +EV. So how can this happen you ask, that we BOTH can make +EV decisions (our push and his call of it). The answer is b/c there is already so much money in the pot (due to his bad play earlier in the hand).

Let me give you an example to illistrate this point. Lets pretend our oppenet and us both have $100 stacks. he then raises to $99 preflop with pocket 2s. We look down at AA,. Whats our best move? Obviously to go all in! Whats his best move when it come to him? Its obviously to call his last $1 (pot odds dictate this). But look....his call of $1 is very very +EV and our push is also +EV. But you can clearly see that we always come out better in this situation.

Hope this helped

dbitel

i like that ANALogy. +rep

dbitel said:

zeb,
I know you've now realised that pushing is best, but there was something you said that disturbed me, so I thought I'd correct you if thats ok:


"Assume he has one club even:
With the all in, the pot is 7.30 or so, and he only needs to put in 3.50 to call. he's getting 2:1 on his money, and his odds of hitting are around 35%, so he's getting odds to call just for the flush.


in other words, any flush potential hand is going to call, and in the long run, be ahead of you."

This is WRONG. Yes a flush draw should call (if you say so...i havent done the maths). HOWEVER, that doesn't mean he comes out ahead of us in the long run. Think intuatively how wrong that sounds/feels. He just put all his stack in on a flush draw and you think he comes out ahead?

dbitel

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my apologies to all on this one - my clarity is obviously suffering here. Or the editing, whatever.

I should stop replying to posts from the office.
somehow my brain and the keyboard mixed up the flush potential hands with the made flush hands (which I still think his bet indicates in most cases).

And remind me to stop sarcastically referring to WAWB (please).

definetly dont stop replying from the office. work is overrated ;/

joosebuck said:

definetly dont stop replying from the office. work is overrated ;/

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that's why I got into poker in the first place!

rofl -rep for offtopic both of you -_-

dad gum