JJ facing re raise, action????

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switch0723

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well this is an imaginary hand that ive made up just to aid me with some understanding. So for arguements sake lets say it is $50 nl and stack sizes of us and villain are $40

Villain is 15/11/4

We are utg +1
Villain is mp2

Dealt to hero [J,J]

Hero raises to $2
Villain raises to $6
Hero?????

I know its a bit vague, but thats the general idea, as im looking for a generic answer as to what we do here with jj against a tight player
 
blankoblanco

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im assuming full ring? i think i'd start by calling, largely for set value. we're definitely not in particularly good shape against his range. 4betting would be reeeally bad, and folding would probably be not much of a mistake. but set value looks to be just barely enough to call. it's kinda marginal tbh. with the full $50 stacks i know i call
 
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switch0723

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^^^ Yea, sorry forgot to mention full ring

If we call however surely we arent getting the implied odds to set mine? Since the bet is $6 and stacks are $40. Therefore the ratio is <7:1, surely that isnt good enough implied odds to set mine? Or are we willing to play on a low flop?
 
blankoblanco

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yeah but you also have to factor in the immediate odds which are better than 2:1 themselves

also, i wouldn't be playing it completely for set value, just largely. for example i'd fold 55 or 66 here, but JJ can be good on more flops, mainly because i think he can have TT. if it comes a low flop, you just have to kind of be confident in your ability to figure out whether he's got AK/TT or an overpair, based on how the flop and turn plays. it's sure not a pretty spot, which is why folding pre is far from bad. the better i think my read on the guy is postflop, the more i don't mind calling

edit: but the way he views you is actually pretty relevant. if he views you as very tight that can change things and make it a fold
 
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blankoblanco

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and just to flesh out my whole opinion of hands in that general upper-to-premium range:

QQ is a standard call (i think we can agree on that?)
TT is probably a fold because it adds a hand to his range that crushes us (JJ) and takes away a hand that we'd crush (TT)
JJ is the most marginal and player dependent case, which i'm guessing is why you used it
 
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UnkNownJacks

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I believe JJ is a call in this situation. Things could get dirty if the flop comes down 2 5 10 rainbow or something...
 
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switch0723

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cheers combu, im still trying to get my head around 3 bet situations pre flop. Since about a week ago, i would muck jacks here instantly assuming im behind, but im slowly realise there is money to be made from these hands.

Just for the arguement lets say both reads (us on villian, and villain on us) are seeing the other play as a TAG Player.


Ok so we call the bet, now lets look at 4 possible flops, assume all flops are rainbow

2,5,9 - Do we lead out here, or do we check to the raiser, then call a bet, then check again expecting a,k or a,q to slow down? Or is that just inviting danger from overcard?

J,J,2 - How would be the best way to extract here? Lead out hoping for a re raise since trip jacks would rarely lead out?

4,6,k - Is this flop purely read based on whether villains a,k now has us crushed, and as to whether villain can lay down pock queens?

8,9,t - A Check raise flop?

Other flops are pretty standard such as a,5,9 being an easy check fold, or a,j,6 being an easy check raise or even a lead out to get action from ace



EDIT: Also combu, you say qq is an easy call, why is it a call instead of a re raise? surely we dont want to be taken a flop out of position, we want to be pushing a bit of action with stacks at about 70bb
 
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chardukian

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I say fold. Best case villain has AK here. Yeah you're a favoritve over AK but JJ is such a hard hand to play oop if you don't flop big. I'd say villains range here is 1010/JJ/QQ/KK/AA/AK/AQs and maybe 99 based on his stats. So I'd say fold and find a better spot. In position this would be played differently.
 
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switch0723

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^^^ How can you say that the best case is if he has a,k, when you put tt and 99 in his range. Surely best case is against 99. Also we are set to win a lot of money against 99 or tt on a low flop, we can also take money from the c bet from a,k or a,q. Aswell as the set possibility allowing us to be stacked into by queens, kings and aces
 
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