JJ on the button facing an UTG raise

villian is 16/11/2.5 over 45 hands.Not a particularly large sample and I'm 22/9/5 over 65+ hands.
I have been watching some TV to kill the boredom and am basically relying on my HUD stats(bad idea I think).
Anyways, I'll go through this hand step by step and would like some advice.

pokerstars Game #24050299309: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2009/01/19 0:13:13 CT [2009/01/19 1:13:13 ET]
Table 'Naos III' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: Orion469 ($12.80 in chips)
Seat 3: rocs15 ($5.10 in chips)
Seat 4: royman0785 ($35.20 in chips)
Seat 5: King Tubbys ($27.20 in chips)
Seat 6: AKParsath ($25 in chips)
Seat 7: Stonza1986 ($22.65 in chips)
Seat 8: podong0 ($23.65 in chips)
Seat 9: flagguy ($11.10 in chips)
rocs15: posts small blind $0.10
royman0785: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Orion469 [Jh Jc]
BlindFantasy joins the table at seat #1
King Tubbys: raises $0.75 to $1
AKParsath: folds
Stonza1986: folds
podong0: folds
flagguy: folds
Orion469:???

call.

baudib1 said:

call.

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As soon as a mod or slanty come on this will be moved to appropriate forum.
I play mostly tourneys and this is the reason I put this up.

Raise -- JJ is the 4th best starting hand. Raise pre-flop while you probably have the advantage. Reevaluate after the flop.

Why do you have a 1/2 stack? Raise and call any shove or fold, you're not getting odds to set mine because you don't have a full stack.

You stack is kind of low to be playing stakes like this. I would shove here.

I would call and then re-evaluate on the flop.

Your stack is a very awkward size for shoving or set mining. Overall, I think shoving is a great way to limit the villain's calling range to race or domination. That's not what I want to accomplish. This guy appears to be a solid player, and while he may fold AQ (the one plus of shoving), I think you're pretty much getting called by AA-JJ and AK and folding everything else out. Looking at a different appraoch, the most common requirement I've seen for set mining is having 12x the bet or more left in your (and your opponent's) stack. It might not quite be -EV to set mine here, but I don't think it's maximizing value.

The most significant part of my decision to flat call is that you have position against both the raiser and anyone else who decides to call. If I were in the small blind, I'd be looking to get more in preflop and isolate the raiser. I might not shove, but it would be a mostly committing reraise. In this position, however, I think I could maximize my value when I get a winning board minimize my losses when I get a losing board. But that requires playing postflop poker and rules out a reraise. Another piece of information that would be useful is the villain's continuation bet percentage. A higher percentage should increase the value of seeing a flop in position with a hand like this.

And I agree with most players that you should have a full stack unless you are practicing short stack strategy.

EDIT: Missed the note about villain stats being a small sample. I probably still just call, but I like to trap. Reraising looks better if you don't have a read.

I've been convinced by a player who's far greater than me that 3-betting an UTG raiser is almost always bad. It's probably really bad with JJ.

Raise seems to be the advice here.
I had decided to call.
BTW, I am experimenting with SS strategy.
I was considering a fold based on villians stats and position but made the call based on the small sample size.
If it had been TT I would have laid it down.
Anyways on with the hand.

PokerStars Game #24050299309: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2009/01/19 0:13:13 CT [2009/01/19 1:13:13 ET]
Table 'Naos III' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: Orion469 ($12.80 in chips)
Seat 3: rocs15 ($5.10 in chips)
Seat 4: royman0785 ($35.20 in chips)
Seat 5: King Tubbys ($27.20 in chips)
Seat 6: AKParsath ($25 in chips)
Seat 7: Stonza1986 ($22.65 in chips)
Seat 8: podong0 ($23.65 in chips)
Seat 9: flagguy ($11.10 in chips)
rocs15: posts small blind $0.10
royman0785: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Orion469 [Jh Jc]
BlindFantasy joins the table at seat #1
King Tubbys: raises $0.75 to $1
AKParsath: folds
Stonza1986: folds
podong0: folds
flagguy: folds
Orion469: calls $1
rocs15: folds
royman0785: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d 4h 2s]
King Tubbys: bets $1.25
Orion469: ???

Meh, raise, but I don't know what I do if he reraises. This is why I'd raise JJ preflop at these stakes. Looks like a standard bet, but any overcard that comes is a scare card and JJ has too many to flat the flop.


btw, I shortstacked this limit for a few months and made pretty steady winnings, but, I left the table at the end of the orbit anytime I got above 35BBs or so. Like others have said, your stack size is awkward.

20BBs deny implied odds and I simply 3-bet/shove flop here or simply shove preflop. Your stack size doesn't deny implied odds entirely but doesn't offer you full implied odds either.

NineLions said:

I left the table at the end of the orbit anytime I got above 35BBs or so. Like others have said, your stack size is awkward.

20BBs deny implied odds and I simply 3-bet/shove flop here or simply shove preflop. Your stack size doesn't deny implied odds entirely but doesn't offer you full implied odds either.

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Right, you're not playing SS here. Looks more like medium stack. SS strategy I read about says to leave the table at 30BB. Then you could rebuy at 20BB, and if this hand came up, you could push pre-flop. Now, I'm not sure I'd want to do that.

If you shove, you are only getting called by better or AK. So, honestly, I think that is out of the question. You can't ONLY call for set value, because as it was mentioned before, you aren't quite getting the odds to set mine. And obviously folding is too weak/tight.

Call in hopes of flopping a set or no overs. If he bets out on a flop of all low cards I think you have to get it in just for the simple fact that he could so easily be c-betting AK or AQ that missed. At least you give yourself a few more hands in his range to shove on instead of just one's that have you dominated.

Also maybe he isn't as solid of a player as he looks. Like you said, your sample on him isn't particularly large, so it's possible that he will call with a much wider range.

I rarely play at this level and was experimenting with the SS strategy at this level for the first time(I know, probably not the best move).
But the reason I put this hand up was to get more of a feel for this level as to what cards regs play from the position villian is in, I'm assuming he is a reg.

Full stacked you should just flat here if villain is a solid player (and he looks to be a pretty solidish TAG). 3Bing JJ on the button vs an UTG raiser in FR is just silly coz you fold out all his range that JJ is ahead of and have to fold if you get 4B. So you are just much better off calling and playing a smaller pot in position vs the widest of villain's range.

But with half stack anything you do seems pretty iffy here. Best bet is probably to call pf and get it in on safer flops.

feitr said:

Best bet is probably to call pf and get it in on safer flops.

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What Kind of flop are we looking for if this isn't a safe flop?

*** FLOP *** [7d 4h 2s] - Rainbow all low cards and not super coordinated, the only really worrisome combo is 56 but this a tiny portion of his range if it is even his the range of a 16/11.

I would've reraised preflop to begin with, especially with your shortstack. But now, I would reraise to 3.15 here.

Steveg1976 said:

What Kind of flop are we looking for if this isn't a safe flop?

*** FLOP *** [7d 4h 2s] - Rainbow all low cards and not super coordinated, the only really worrisome combo is 56 but this a tiny portion of his range if it is even his the range of a 16/11.

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I never said that wasn't a safe flop. 56 isn't in villain's range and we would LOVE it if 56 was in his range so he stacks off with an 8 out draw.

The part I quoted made it sound like you thought this was not the safest flop, that is why I asked, sorry.

Either re-raise or shove all in are the only options I see. Personally I like the re-raise option as I would need more information before an all in. But an all in could possibly buy it and pJ's is a high hand could be worse.

I would rather raise and see what I'm dealing with. Will have same effect as a shove.

i don't get why everyone always says 'raise or fold!' with hands like this. if there's a chance he'll fold something like 88, A7, 99, TT, then you shouldn't be raising, because you'll fold out those hands (the ones you beat) and get action from QQ+. raising to protect your hand isn't great here, i call and probably call down any turn/river, unless it comes running A, K or something

So what happened? Did you fold or win?

He only raised 4x the big blind.. i think you call or raise .. Depends on how he is playing.. I think you possibly raise to $4 or $5.. If he calls or goes all in your committed but i think going all in looks too desperate..There is only $1.75in the pot and raising to $12+ looks like your trying to get him out.. Also makes you look like a rookie and might give him more suspicion to call you.

I think you shove this flop. You're most likely ahead here...he could still call with 88-TT and it's more likely that he has AK/AQ.

vanquish said:

i don't get why everyone always says 'raise or fold!' with hands like this. if there's a chance he'll fold something like 88, A7, 99, TT, then you shouldn't be raising, because you'll fold out those hands (the ones you beat) and get action from QQ+. raising to protect your hand isn't great here, i call and probably call down any turn/river, unless it comes running A, K or something

Click to expand...

PokerStars Game #24050299309: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2009/01/19 0:13:13 CT [2009/01/19 1:13:13 ET]
Table 'Naos III' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: Orion469 ($12.80 in chips)
Seat 3: rocs15 ($5.10 in chips)
Seat 4: royman0785 ($35.20 in chips)
Seat 5: King Tubbys ($27.20 in chips)
Seat 6: AKParsath ($25 in chips)
Seat 7: Stonza1986 ($22.65 in chips)
Seat 8: podong0 ($23.65 in chips)
Seat 9: flagguy ($11.10 in chips)
rocs15: posts small blind $0.10
royman0785: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Orion469 [Jh Jc]
BlindFantasy joins the table at seat #1
King Tubbys: raises $0.75 to $1
AKParsath: folds
Stonza1986: folds
podong0: folds
flagguy: folds
Orion469: calls $1
rocs15: folds
royman0785: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d 4h 2s]
King Tubbys: bets $1.25
Orion469: calls $1.25
*** TURN *** [7d 4h 2s] K♣
King Tubbys: bets $3.25
Orion469: folds
Uncalled bet ($3.25) returned to King Tubbys
King Tubbys collected $4.65 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4.85 | Rake $0.20
Board [7d 4h 2s Kc]
Seat 2: Orion469 (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 3: rocs15 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: royman0785 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: King Tubbys collected ($4.65)
Seat 6: AKParsath folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Stonza1986 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: podong0 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: flagguy folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I went with Vanq on this based on villians stats, sure it was a small sample but like I had mentioned in the opening post, I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have and relied more on my HUD at the time.
I had also noticed(when I payed attention) when villian was in a hand he usually bet when he had a hand.
Sure I could have raised his flop bet on that board and I would have if he had not raised preflop UTG.
His position played a big part in my decisions, and I believe if he had just checked the turn I would have put in a big bet.
IMO, based on the actions of villian I could clearly put him on AK now.