I want to fold KK pre

Rush poker,no stats. If the limp-reraiser had been UTG, I think I fold. I can't imagine AA limping from the CO. Given the likelihood that the shortstack may have AA, should I discount it even more and just shove to get him to call this off with QQ/JJ/AK?

Stacks:
UTG ($53.25)
UTG+1 ($45.15)
CO ($91.80)
BTN ($31.55)
Hero (SB) ($88.85)
BB ($20.15)

Pre-Flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is SB
2 folds, CO calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.50, BB raises to $8, CO raises to $13.50,

You have 88.00 dollars and seem to have done well. This is a push Or I think you should fold every hand from now on.

I am folding here,because the situation is deep-stacked (150BB+). It's not worth the risk, because you have the following cases:

1. AA -> 18% chance to win
2. KK -> split
3. QQ or less -> 81% to win
4. Ax -> 70% chance to win

It's very unlikely that you are against Ax,QQ or less , because CO re-raised (didn't shove) it means he wants action. I think he will want action only if he has AA/KK.

If he shoved - this is a call because he will shove with QQ,JJ & AK for sure.

BB can have 88+ to do this or some big Ace - you can forget about the short stack because you can't fold Kings for such small amount, even if it was live game and he shows you AA. This situation is even easier fold for me because you will see a showdown. The shortstack is obviously not folding and you can see CO's AA.

I agree if he was UTG, at somewhere around 160bb+ when it becomes obvious that the other guy has AA/KK, I don't mind folding KK (have never done it myself, but theoretically).

Your range really isn't that strong here though, he hasn't shown strength so to raise him you've really got any pocket pair, any broadway, lots of SCers. BB's range is a little stronger, but still a very wide value range. CO did limp raise, but was he really relying on the button and blinds to raise so that he could come over the top? It happens, but is unlikely. I'm not really sure what range to put him on, but AQ+, 99+ and some random SCers sounds about right. I shove every time here.

The fact that BB is in this hand means that you can never fold this. Just shove and cry when he shows AA.

you guys prefer shoving to 5-betting smaller?

I was thinking:
1. Raise to $25 to look retarded strong, and maybe fold if he comes over the top.
2. Raise to like $35-$40 and obviously commit myself to the rest of the hand, even if he calls and an A flops.

baudib1 said:

you guys prefer shoving to 5-betting smaller?

I was thinking:
1. Raise to $25 to look retarded strong, and maybe fold if he comes over the top.
2. Raise to like $35-$40 and obviously commit myself to the rest of the hand, even if he calls and an A flops.

Click to expand...

Once you 5 bet, you cannot fold to a shove. Just shove, it is not going to change anything, 25 or stack, he has probably already made up his mind.

Actually, thoughts on just calling? Might be an interesting line to take, cause shoving might fold AK/QQ

This is where cash games go over my head... folding KK preflop...? Its blasphemy to me. In a tournament no matter what I'm only risking my buy in which is usually low... folding KK is never a good idea, when the other guy does have aces, you can suck out on him or lose and complain about a cold deck. Cash games are a different and strange kettle of sharks to me...

It took me a minute to choose the 5bet shove option for my first response, I wanted to 5bet smaller but there's really no good sizing option, stacks are going to be commited so just shove.

As for calling, it might work but then KK is greatly under represented and it's going to be really hard to fold post-flop if an A doesn't come. If we're hardly ever folding, I'd rather get the money in while we're more likely to be ahead.

Being deep stacked is no excuse for folding KK, yeah I guess maybe he's got AA... But AK is in there TT+ is in there. I just think folding KK becaue he might have AA maybe is bad. And aren't people 3betting rush poker super light? CO looks like an idiot limp 3bet... What the hell shove and punish them for being stupid. If the cutoff has AA then I guess oops but who plays AA like that?

It's a jam here every time.

I get pissed when i have KK and get no action and here you have action of the best kind and you wanna fold? lol

It's allin. You cant fold KK preflop, unless you are in a 300K GTD tourny on Final Table and 5 guys went allin before you, then you can fold it.

If you fold KK pre here.. then you're a bigger man than I am, lol.

I could see how you would contemplate it, though.. especially with the CO having you covered if he were to go all-in. He could be trapping you.. but I would put the guy on a medicore suited Ace.. like A10 suited.

I say flat call, even if the BB goes all-in. The BB probably has another pocket pair, but I doubt Aces. If you call the $13.50 and the BB flat calls, then contemplate a fold if an Ace hits the flop, depending on the action that happens post-flop.

That's what I would do.

KK is one of the hardest for me to fold. I think I too would flat call and hope no ace on the flop. I have lost to smaller trips on the flop, lol. With this being a cash game it is a lot more at stake.
I will be checking back on this blog.

Squeeze play, nearly textbook perfect as I understand it.

I'll go with the 5 bet here, just to get BB all-in. CO didn't raise PF so his strength is based as much on stack size as anything. Both BB and CO figure to have big Aces, though probably not AA. Add in that nagging suspicion about FT and it's a hairy spot to be in. I'm thinking that even CO will see that the 5 bet is a place to settle and re-evaluate a flop. Your stack represents a big potential ding to his stack and sanity may prevail.

Being this is RUSH, it may be that you have no endplay results for us to mull over.

All that said, I've been on a downswing in the RUSH games due largely to folks hitting sets against my overpair.............................

If you do fold in this situation, you have to rat hole before continuing. For those unfamiliar with the term 'rat hole', it is where you stand up, bank your winnings, and then sit back down with a fresh max buy-in, something you can do in RUSH, that you can't do on regular tables (they make you wait x amount of time, or change tables).

yea u cant fold there w/ your stack, i was playing rush last week 50/1.00 and had QQ raised 5 got 3 callers then a reraise to 30.. i was stuck didnt know what to do...i ended up folding...and so did every one else..kinda wish i had seen what he had... but i have also been in a hand in rush where i had q's and called that big rerasie only to be up again AA and KK...

Unless you have a sick read, you shouldn't fold. I would actaully call here. If no Ace comes on the flop, get ready to shove.

I agreed with poker kid in that BB's range was stronger than CO's...he's shortstacked and seemingly wants action. I decided the CO must have JJ/QQ and I tanked a bit before shoving over, hoping they'd put me on AK. The BB called and the CO called.

Board went 6AKJA

BB had JJ
CO had TT

Sorry normally when I see should I fold KK pre threads I just laugh but this is seriously AA 100% of the time. He limp/min 4-bet when you're deep. You have odds to set mine though. I flat pre and when he inevitably pots flop, which he WILL, fold if you don't flop a set and stack him if you do.

Wow wtf TT? That's the most retarded line in the world. Also I agree with the shove but for different reasons. Not sure if they'll "put you on AK" but since you're never bluffing in this spot no reason to raise smaller to balance, just shove it all in the pot.

for real?

bubonicplay said:

Sorry normally when I see should I fold KK pre threads I just laugh but this is seriously AA 100% of the time. He limp/min 4-bet when you're deep. You have odds to set mine though. I flat pre and when he inevitably pots flop, which he WILL, fold if you don't flop a set and stack him if you do.

Click to expand...

I honestly would never ever do this..i would never consider set mining with kk...it just doesnt apply here imo...i think its a shove pre every time...although you cold alway be a little careful and call then shove a flop with no Ace..imo, although aces are likely i dont think it +ev to be folding kk in this spot...i definitely wouldnt try set miine...whay if u hit ur set and another ace comes with it?...you fold unless u call bet to turn quads?

the idea of set mining with KK just put me on life tilt, lol. thanks for the replies guys. If I had called here, do I fold river cuz zomg, he's got quad Aces or Royal Frush?!

$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($53.25)
UTG+1 ($45.15)
CO ($91.80)
BTN ($31.55)
Hero (SB) ($88.85)
BB ($20.15)

Pre-Flop: ([color:#0000cc]$0.75[/color], 6 players) Hero is SB
2 folds, [color:#B93238]CO calls $0.50[/color], 1 fold, [color:#272BA6]Hero raises to $2.50[/color], [color:#272BA6]BB raises to $8[/color], [color:#272BA6]CO raises to $13.50[/color], [color:#272BA6]Hero goes all-in $88.85[/color], [color:#272BA6]BB goes all-in $12.15[/color], [color:#B93238]CO calls $75.35[/color]

Flop: ([color:#0000cc]$197.85[/color], 3 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ([color:#0000cc]$197.85[/color], 3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ([color:#0000cc]$197.85[/color], 3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: [color:#0000cc]$197.85[/color]
Hero shows a full house, Kings full of Aces

BB shows a full house, Jacks full of Aces

CO shows two pair, Aces and Tens


Hero wins $194.85 (net +$106.00)

BB lost $20.15
CO lost $88.85

ok my post got deleted so let me be a bit more polite in this response and avoid direct insults.

If you know your opponent has AA here, folding is WRONG. You should flat looking to set mine. I know I am right here and I think it's extremely disrespectful to say that idea put you on life tilt and basically make fun of my response when I was simply trying to help you. Plus I'm right.

You're right that if you think villain can have/stack a hand like JJ or TT it's an easy raise or shove, but if you truly think his range is exactly AA and AA only, which is true of a lot of people in this spot, you should not want to fold KK pre as you said in your title, yet should be looking to set mine. It's just a fact and when you have to ridicule someone's idea just because it's different from yours that says a lot about you imo.

OK let's discuss this rationally:

1. Flatting 4-bets with any hand in general is terrible. Flatting 4 bets OOP is horrible and should almost never be done, with the possible exception of doing it with AA when you know villain is FOS. Flatting a 4-bet with KK OOP vs. a LP raiser is just all kinds of bad.

2. The idea of "set mining" with KK is just laughable, and really demonstrates a poor approach to poker. For one thing, we don't have anywhere near the odds to set mine. Do you really call off 15% of your stack with 22, looking to set mine? That's LOLterribad. We're going to have to put 22% of our stack in because we can safely assume BB is shoving the rest in.

3. "Set mining" inherently implies that we are folding KK when OOP on a low board when we miss our set. Folding KK on a low board in a 4-bet, multiway pot is about as -EV as anything I can think of other than folding AA preflop when 4 people go all-in.

Furthermore, I did not put CO on AA; I expressly stated that I thought the CO had QQ/JJ and that the BB was far more likely to have AA, thus making it all the more important to get CO to put his stack in.