Did I bet enough for him to fold on the turn???

Apparently this guy is saying I didn't "bet enough" to make him fold on the turn...I want your opinions...

pokerstars Game #12644510394: Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05) - 2007/10/15 - 15:27:37 (ET)
Table 'Atalante III' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: tbvle ($5.86 in chips)
Seat 3: B the Reaper ($3.68 in chips)
Seat 4: TubaMark316 ($2.84 in chips)
Seat 5: magicmansson ($5.67 in chips)
Seat 6: GoalPostHead ($2.10 in chips)
magicmansson: posts small blind $0.02
GoalPostHead: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TubaMark316 [Kd Kh]
tbvle: folds
B the Reaper: folds
TubaMark316: raises $0.10 to $0.15
magicmansson: calls $0.13
juistagame has returned
GoalPostHead: calls $0.10
*** FLOP *** [3d 9c 5c]
magicmansson: checks
GoalPostHead: checks
TubaMark316: bets $0.20
magicmansson: calls $0.20
GoalPostHead: calls $0.20
*** TURN *** [3d 9c 5c] [Jd]
magicmansson: checks
GoalPostHead: checks
TubaMark316: bets $0.65
magicmansson: folds
GoalPostHead: calls $0.65
*** RIVER *** [3d 9c 5c Jd] [4c]
GoalPostHead: checks
TubaMark316: bets $1.20
GoalPostHead: calls $1.10 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TubaMark316: shows [Kd Kh] (a pair of Kings)
GoalPostHead: shows [Qc 8c] (a flush, Queen high)
GoalPostHead collected $4.35 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4.55 | Rake $0.20
Board [3d 9c 5c Jd 4c]
Seat 2: tbvle folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: B the Reaper folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: TubaMark316 (button) showed [Kd Kh] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: magicmansson (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 6: GoalPostHead (big blind) showed [Qc 8c] and won ($4.35) with a flush, Queen high


Yeah, he took the rest of my BR and started saying that I didn't "bet enough" to make him fold on the turn...
I then proceeded to say that even if I went all-in on the turn he woulda still called...he said "Well, I guess so..."
QWIFNQWPRIQNWQPWRQNPWRPQWN!!! BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

I hate people who chase...
Please comment on this.

P.S) I NOW have no more money...

edit: I need a beer and someone to calm me down...any takers?

You didn't bet enough on the flop. 2/3 pot on turn is fine, but I may consider overbetting there to make sure draws like his pay way too much to draw (plus, at these stakes you will probably get more value that way anyway, since they'll likely chase).

vanquish said:

You didn't bet enough on the flop. 2/3 pot on turn is fine, but I may consider overbetting there to make sure draws like his pay way too much to draw (plus, at these stakes you will probably get more value that way anyway, since they'll likely chase).

Click to expand...

I knew I had a feeling I didn't bet enough on the flop because both of them called...but it's still irritating that he is going to call THAT much on the turn just to catch the damn thing...

And honeslty, I was thinking of betting the pot on the turn when it came...because I took awhile to think, but I just bet 2/3...and he took awhile to think...but it's still messed up.

These are the players that we all profit from, I would say it's a good thing that so many of them will pay this much to draw.

I totally agree with Vanquish's last statement, bad beats are a sign that you're doing something right. Think about it if they played standard ABC poker you most likely would not profit as much in the long run.

vanquish said:

You didn't bet enough on the flop. 2/3 pot on turn is fine, but I may consider overbetting there to make sure draws like his pay way too much to draw (plus, at these stakes you will probably get more value that way anyway, since they'll likely chase).

Click to expand...

I agree with this, bet bigger on the flop, I usually bet the pot. I would consider pushing on the turn, simply because he's so shortstacked. If I'm doing my math correctly he's got $1.75 by the trun and the pot has $1.05. It's an overbet to be sure and normally we want to induce them to make a mistake since it means money for us, but force him to chase for all his chips. It may not change his overall decision, but when he misses he'll feel it a lot more. Also, if you've put him on a flush draw, I'd check the river and save yourself a bet.

The poker Gods clearly hate you.

Villain here was not getting proper odds to justify the call, but at the micro table how many even think about proper odds?

You bet fine, villain was/is a donk.... get em next time.

That said, consider playing hands like those at the micro tables much smaller. You know you have donks there, and they know that for whatever reason you are playing the 'donk' tables. Pot control.

My opinion on this street by street:
pre-flop - bet at least 4XBB - you want to weed out the crap. At only 3XBB as soon as you get 1 caller, the BB has odds to call with almost anything.
flop - the pot is .45, there is a flush draw and a str8 draw. Two checks to you, I am betting MINIMUM of .40 here. You don't want someone correct odds to draw here.
turn - the pot is now 1.05. Again, not much here but a draw. If they want to draw, MAKE THEM PAY. Bet the pot and ensure that they are making the mistake here, not you. For the average guy, even at the micros, the $1 bet would have made him fold, .65 looks like you are on the draw as well.

On the river - here I think I check this one down as either he folds if he didn't hit (you don't make any more money that if you checked) or he calls if he did hit (and wins) - either way, betting the river has no benefit to you. He had no reason to lead because he knew you would get your money in. If he were to have pushed, you might not have called after the flush card hit. These hands suck and it takes a while to learn the signs, hope this helps a bit!

dj11 said:

The poker Gods clearly hate you.

Villain here was not getting proper odds to justify the call, but at the micro table how many even think about proper odds?

Click to expand...

I think he's absolutely getting odds to call. If he figures to double if he hits, which is very reasonable given how little he has left, he has to pay 0.65 to win 2.80, which is better than 4:1. He has 12 outs (flush and straight) and likely figured his queen was also good. The 12 outs alone are 26% to win, which makes it +EV for him to call.

So technically you didn't bet enough on the turn. In other situations I'd bet 2/3, but given the overcaller on the flop, I think a larger bet was called for. At least 3/4.

TubaMark316 said:

Apparently this guy is saying I didn't "bet enough" to make him fold on the turn...I want your opinions...

PokerStars Game #12644510394: Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05) - 2007/10/15 - 15:27:37 (ET)
Table 'Atalante III' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: tbvle ($5.86 in chips)
Seat 3: B the Reaper ($3.68 in chips)
Seat 4: TubaMark316 ($2.84 in chips)
Seat 5: magicmansson ($5.67 in chips)
Seat 6: GoalPostHead ($2.10 in chips)
magicmansson: posts small blind $0.02
GoalPostHead: posts big blind $0.05 = 1 chip
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TubaMark316 [Kd Kh]
tbvle: folds
B the Reaper: folds
TubaMark316: raises (3 chips)
magicmansson: calls (3 chips)
juistagame has returned
GoalPostHead: calls (3 chips)

Pot = (9 chips)

*** FLOP *** [3d 9c 5c]
magicmansson: checks
GoalPostHead: checks
TubaMark316: bets (4 chips)
magicmansson: calls (4 chips for the possiblity to win 17, 4:1 odds)

I'm going to disregard this villain because he folds later in the hand. But please note because of the odds that this villain is getting it is probably was not a bad a call. Your bet should have been more right here and this hand would not have played out the way that it did.

GoalPostHead: calls (4 chips for the possibility to win 21, 5:1 odds)

Note!
To figure your percentage to have the best hand at showdown you can multiply your outs by 4% after the turn and 2% after the turn.

In this case villain needed better than 20% to win this hand to make it profitable (5:1 odds). This means that if villain has more than 4 outs it would be a profitable play for him. Villain in fact had 9 outs if he felt that his Q high flush would be good. Or villain had a 36% chance to win the hand.

Pot = (21 chips)

*** TURN *** [3d 9c 5c] J♦
magicmansson: checks
GoalPostHead: checks
TubaMark316: bets (13 chips)
magicmansson: folds
GoalPostHead: calls (13 chips for the possibility to win 47, 3.5:1 odds)

In this case villain needed better than 29% to win this hand to make it profitable (3.5:1 odds). This means that if villain has more than 15 outs it would be a profitable play for him. Villain in fact had 9 outs if he felt that his Q high flush would be good. Or villain had a 18% chance to win the hand. Villain made a mistake here and should have folded.

Pot = (47 chips)

*** RIVER *** [3d 9c 5c Jd] 4♣
GoalPostHead: checks
TubaMark316: bets (24 chips)
GoalPostHead: calls (24 chips for the possibilit to win 95, 4:1 odds)

Easy call by villain

Pot = (95 chips)

*** SHOW DOWN ***
TubaMark316: shows [Kd Kh] (a pair of Kings)
GoalPostHead: shows [Qc 8c] (a flush, Queen high)
GoalPostHead collected $4.35 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4.55 | Rake $0.20
Board [3d 9c 5c Jd 4c]
Seat 2: tbvle folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: B the Reaper folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: TubaMark316 (button) showed [Kd Kh] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: magicmansson (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 6: GoalPostHead (big blind) showed [Qc 8c] and won ($4.35) with a flush, Queen high


Yeah, he took the rest of my BR and started saying that I didn't "bet enough" to make him fold on the turn...

Click to expand...

Your flop bet was the mistake not the turn bet as others have said.

Thanks everyone!

I wish I could go back and re-do this and I would...

And I wish I had more money so I could play higher stakes...
I know some of you said that there are a lot of Donkeys in micro limits...well, if I had money to get out of Micro limits...I would...

I'm sorry I don't win and make money like most of you do...

TubaMark316 said:

Thanks everyone!

I wish I could go back and re-do this and I would...

And I wish I had more money so I could play higher stakes...
I know some of you said that there are a lot of Donkeys in micro limits...well, if I had money to get out of Micro limits...I would...

I'm sorry I don't win and make money like most of you do...

Click to expand...

Don't think that the donkeys disappear as you move up limits. They only have more money. There are some horrendous players at $100 max. Learn to beat the lower limit game and move up. You will learn valuable pieces of information as you move along. In the mean time, keep plugging along at the micros and keep posting HHs and asking questions.