how should i extract value from a very poor but passive villain?

Tygran

Tygran

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The villain in question is 91/20/1... so extremely loose and even overly aggressive preflop, but becomes an extremely passive calling station post flop. I am trying to decide if I could have/should have bet more with this hand...

This particular villain vastly overvalues top pair but I have also seen him slam on the brakes if he thinks you have something as he kinda did here and he has folded to some of the tighter players at the table playing back at him hard, showing a pair a couple of times. For example I've twice seen him do that min-reraise on the flop, then fold to a 2/3 pot bet on the turn on a blank. He had also done that min reraise once with a gut shot and then called down on the turn/river (he hit 2nd pair on the turn, probably why he called the river but who knows)

So... I felt I had to bet into him because he's calling with anything, and I also didn't want to bet too much cause he has shown he will fold if you push a little too hard. Honestly the $1 bet on the turn..I was hoping to induce another raise but no such luck. Rereading this HH I wish I'd bet more, but I definitely remember at the time I was thinking "don't push him out!"

Should I have been betting more? If so how much and why? With the ace he probably would have called a bit more...with something weaker probably not. Where's the balance of getting max value vs not having him fold?


pokerstars Game #18570443196: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/07/04 - 02:53:17 (ET)
Table 'Cortusa' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: redashford ($25 in chips)
Seat 2: topspur76 ($24.65 in chips)
Seat 4: nonmybiz ($8.35 in chips)
Seat 5: Tygran37 ($36.55 in chips)
Seat 6: BrushLee2008 ($22.30 in chips)
Seat 7: ArtBrock ($25.50 in chips)
Seat 9: tripa22 ($24.55 in chips)
capa_audaz will be allowed to play after the button
nonmybiz: posts small blind $0.10
Tygran37: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Tygran37 [Qh 2s]
BrushLee2008: calls $0.25
ArtBrock: calls $0.25
tripa22: folds
redashford: folds
topspur76: folds
nonmybiz: calls $0.15
Tygran37: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ah 2d 2h]
nonmybiz: checks
Tygran37: bets $0.50
BrushLee2008: folds
ArtBrock: raises $0.50 to $1
nonmybiz: folds
Tygran37: calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [Ah 2d 2h] Q♠
Tygran37: bets $1
ArtBrock: calls $1
*** RIVER *** [Ah 2d 2h Qs] 9♣
Tygran37: bets $3.25
ArtBrock: calls $3.25
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Tygran37: shows [Qh 2s] (a full house, Deuces full of Queens)
ArtBrock: mucks hand
Tygran37 collected $10.95 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $11.50 | Rake $0.55
Board [Ah 2d 2h Qs 9c]
Seat 1: redashford folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: topspur76 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: nonmybiz (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: Tygran37 (big blind) showed [Qh 2s] and won ($10.95) with a full house, Deuces full of Queens
Seat 6: BrushLee2008 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: ArtBrock mucked [4c Ad]
Seat 9: tripa22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
Last edited:
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ColdDeckCity

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Over betting can be a great way to get max value over all. Remember you don't necessarily want to make the most value from a specific instance but from the situation time and time again, overall in your poker career. Working out if it is profitable really does depend on the player and how well you read him. I think the math below is right, some one tell me if it isn't! (The example does not follow the hand history figures)

Say if you bet the river $2 which would guarantee you a call every time, the EV is $2

But if you over bet to $5 and only get called 50% of the time, then you EV for the play becomes $2.5. Because one time you don't get called = 0 but the other time your over bet does = $5

$5 divided by 2 = $2.5

Which mean over betting in this instance like this would win you $0.5 more each time
 
Tygran

Tygran

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Over betting can be a great way to get max value over all. Remember you don't necessarily want to make the most value from a specific instance but from the situation time and time again, overall in your poker career. Working out if it is profitable really does depend on the player and how well you read him. I think the math below is right, some one tell me if it isn't! (The example does not follow the hand history figures)

Say if you bet the river $2 which would guarantee you a call every time, the EV is $2

But if you over bet to $5 and only get called 50% of the time, then you EV for the play becomes $2.5. Because one time you don't get called = 0 but the other time your over bet does = $5

$5 divided by 2 = $2.5

Which mean over betting in this instance like this would win you $0.5 more each time

While you are correct, this situation isn't very standard as you don't run into villains like this *that* often. Basically he will call up to a point as long as it's "cheap enough" and won't call if it becomes "too expensive". If I cross that line, I get nothing, If I stay underneath it..I get called every time.

Where do you typically find that line to be in this sort of spot?

In other words...if I overbet this I don't think I get called 50% of the time... closer to 0 but probably not exactly zero. 10% maybe.
 
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ColdDeckCity

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On a general level 2/3 pot is, i guess the standard bet but that really is a bit too nebulous.

If you cross that line are you sure you'll only get called 10% of the time?
If that is the case then you need to define what his threshold is, the only way to do that is to play against him and see what amounts he pays of with what type of hands

Sounds obvious but once you find a players threshold, i.e 50% pot bets, 75% pot bets etc then bet the max
 
ChuckTs

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Well if he truly will only call down if the bets are 'small enough', then bet 'small enough'. For one, an AF of 1 is actually very aggressive for a 90 vpip player. He may not bet very big, but his AF is saying he bets frequently. I seriously would be very surprised a guy this bad won't call down 1/2-PS bets to the river with top pair though. I just valuetown guys like these.
 
Tygran

Tygran

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Well if he truly will only call down if the bets are 'small enough', then bet 'small enough'. For one, an AF of 1 is actually very aggressive for a 90 vpip player. He may not bet very big, but his AF is saying he bets frequently. I seriously would be very surprised a guy this bad won't call down 1/2-PokerStars bets to the river with top pair though. I just valuetown guys like these.

yeah i agree... i wish i could replay this hand with him 3 or 4 times just to see what he'd do and normally those stats I'd bet more against without even thinking about it.


However beyond the numbers I had several observed hands at this table where he had made some extremely unusual betting patterns... things like he'd raise one straight and fold to a 60% pot bet the next... once saw him raise flop, raise turn, fold to half pot on river. this particular villain just made no sense whatsoever on any level lol.
 
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