How much is too much for small pp's?

A

AcesLA07

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I usually play .05/.10 cash games on FT. Well I seem to get alot of small pocket pairs. I usually just limp in and see the flop and hope to catch a set. Well recently I've been facing alot of raises with small pockets. A call of .35 here and .40 there adds up when you only sit with $4. So my question is what should I do? Call the raise to hit a set? Usually I don't hit the set though and those raises dwindle my stack down.
 
ChuckTs

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Calling standard raises with small pairs is definitely a winning play as long as the effective stack size is reasonably deep, say 60+ big blinds. The deeper the better though.

The math behind set mining is a little hazy, but I've found if you commit less than 1/10 of your stack preflop and can extract money fairly well postflop, then you'll definitely make money in the long run.
 
c9h13no3

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Best thing to do is watch your table and see how and what they play. i dont see anything wrong with calling a bet of say .40 with a pocket pair unless you have a few callers. then you either get lucky or you can lay it down.
Um, no. I hate when poster's have no idea what they're talking about, but proceed to answer the question anyways.

The answer is simple math. You need roughly 12:1 implied odds to hit a set. How do you figure out your implied odds?

Lets say an opponent has 10$ at your game, and you also have 10$. They raise to 35 cents to go preflop. That means you can win $9.65 from them if you hit your set, and it costs you 35 cents to see if you hit.

Soo.... 9.65/0.35 = 28:1! Those are pretty good implied odds.

However, lets say you buy in for 4$ instead. Your opponent still has 10$, but if he raises to $0.35 preflop, you can only win 3.65 from him when you make your set. So...

3.65/0.35 = 10.4:1. You do not have sufficient implied odds to try and make your set, and you should probably fold.

So yeah, as a general rule, 12:1. That'll serve you quite well at micro limits.

This also assumes that this pair will never be an overpair, and that you'll never play it as mid-pair. A hand like TT, or 99 can often be an overpair or can be played as mid-pair, so you need less implied odds for those hands.

We should probably sticky something like this...
 
Deltafrost

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i agree with the above poster, but i go a little looser and only require 10:1 odds to call which i thought was tight as i've read alot of people require as little as 8:1 to call for set mining.

The problem with you calling this is your effective stacks. I've found the buying in for medium stack in a ring game is simply bad strategy. either buy in full or buy in for the min and use an effective short stack strategy.

just remember to have a slightly larger roll for short stack because from what i read it has a higher variance factor than deepstack strategies.
 
WVHillbilly

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You're not getting the implied odds you need because you are buying short. If you must buy short do some research on solid ss strategy.
 
Richyl2008

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Your odds of flopping a set are somewhere around 7.5-8 to 1. So say your oppenent has $4.50 and raises to .50 preflop. He has $4.00 behind so you are essentially getting 8 to 1 implied odds on your call assuming you have more or equal to his stack size. This may seem like a breakeven play to some but since you will only flop a set 1 in about 8 times you will lose .50 7 times so the one time that you do hit your set you will HAVE to stack them every time you hit a set in order to make it a breakeven play in the long run.

"I usually play .05/.10 cash games on FT. Well I seem to get alot of small pocket pairs. I usually just limp in and see the flop and hope to catch a set. Well recently I've been facing alot of raises with small pockets. A call of .35 here and .40 there adds up when you only sit with $4. So my question is what should I do?"

If your the first player to enter the pot by middle position or better and you want to play your pair you should bring it in for a raise. Limping first in in these seats is a weak play and players who have position on you may recognize this and raise to isolate you with any 2 cards, and when you call thier raise their mainly counting on the fact that they can cbet the flop and take the pot down a high percentage of the time, since most flops miss most hands. If you put up any resistance most of the time they will just fold and you will win a small pot. Raising allows you an extra way of winning, so if you get say 1 caller for instance and cbet the flop your going to take that pot down more than half the time, and your going to have built a bigger pot if you flop your set. If you get 3bet preflop you should usually just fold your smaller pairs unless stacks are deep to the point where there is enough money behind where you can show a profit by setmining.
In early position you should try to notice if the table is pretty aggressive preflop, If that is the case sometimes I will just open fold some of the weaker pairs.
 
schnozzinkobenstein

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The answer is simple math. You need roughly 12:1 implied odds to hit a set. How do you figure out your implied odds?

Lets say an opponent has 10$ at your game, and you also have 10$. They raise to 35 cents to go preflop. That means you can win $9.65 from them if you hit your set, and it costs you 35 cents to see if you hit.

Soo.... 9.65/0.35 = 28:1! Those are pretty good implied odds.

However, lets say you buy in for 4$ instead. Your opponent still has 10$, but if he raises to $0.35 preflop, you can only win 3.65 from him when you make your set. So...

3.65/0.35 = 10.4:1. You do not have sufficient implied odds to try and make your set, and you should probably fold.

So yeah, as a general rule, 12:1. That'll serve you quite well at micro limits.

c9h13no3, I believe you are getting pot odds all jumbled up with implied odds. Implied odds take into account future bets, so your 10.4:1 figure should be plenty good for implied odds for hitting a hand as strong as a set. Just because your opponent has $10 doesn't mean you have implied odds to set mine if he bets 1/12 of his stack. When you do hit your set, half the time villain is not going to hit, so he'll fold to most bets, and the other half there is going to be a scary flop like a flush draw. Rarely will you both want to go all-in, thus making your implied odds actually work out for once.

Pot odds: If the pot is, for example, $1.20, and it's $0.10 to call you're getting 12:1 odds to call. You consider pot odds when only thinking about the current street of betting. If odds of hitting a set on the flop are 12:1 (or better*), then you have pot odds to call.

Now implied odds: We'll say you can usually get at least one more bet out of villain when you hit your flopped set, lets further say the money you are guaranteed to get out of him is $0.30 more. This extra bet on the flop makes the minimum possible pot $1.80. So with $0.10 to call into the $1.20 pot trying to hit sets, you can call up to $0.15, because $1.80/$0.15=12 (your hypothetical 12:1 chance of hitting the set on the flop). Of course you could say your implied odds are better than that, but I play very safe because my post-flop play is horrible.

Poker gods: Feel free to tell me I'm a dumb-shit. This did not look right to me and I did not want anyone being misinformed. :)


*I don't know what it actually is, could someone tell me a good place to find odds of flopping certain hands? I would appreciate it a lot.
 
Richyl2008

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Implied odds is an estimation, the best you can do is to figure out the maximum implied odds you have against an opponent which is limited by thier stack size and determine how likely it is that if you hit you will win a big pot against them. A very tight player raising from UTG with a full stack I am going to assume that if I hit my set I have a good chance of winning a big pot against this player. If i'm in the blinds and a loose player raises the button and he is passive post flop with the same stack size, calling strictly for set value is not going to be too profitable since he will not have a big enough hand enough of the time to put the rest of his chips in. So you can still call in this spot but your going to have to play back occassionally and take the pot away without your set for you to profit in this spot.
 
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If you are going to be heads up, pay close attention to villain's tendencies. You are wanting manaic type players who will hang themselves, or very nitty preflop players, because it is more likely they are raising a hand that will make tptk or an overpair and may be unable to lay it down. If somebody is playing loose, but is able to lay down hands post flop to resistance then you probably dont' want to set mine, because these players probably aren't goign to hit big hands even if you do hit a set and aren't going to spew money postflop by bluffing/value betting too thinly etc.

Then just make sure you are both pretty deepstacked. set mining/implied odds hands like s/cs are a nono if you aren't playing deepstacked.

edit: nvm didn't read previous post beforehand and so most of this was already discussed.
 
BelgoSuisse

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I usually play .05/.10 cash games on FT. Well I seem to get alot of small pocket pairs. I usually just limp in and see the flop and hope to catch a set. Well recently I've been facing alot of raises with small pockets. A call of .35 here and .40 there adds up when you only sit with $4. So my question is what should I do? Call the raise to hit a set? Usually I don't hit the set though and those raises dwindle my stack down.

Don't buy in for $4. Either buy in short at $2 or full for $10. Don't set mine if you're not deep enough. 40 big blinds is not enough. you want to be able to call a raise with small pocket pairs, because it's against raising hands that you get the best chance to get a stack when you hit your set. And to get 12:1 implied odds when you call a 4bb open-raise, you need 48bb. To limp/call a raise, you need even more as a lot of players will raise 4bb+1 per limper. 100bb is a nice stack size, and incidentally, it's the full buy in.
 
S

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i say u doing the right thing by calling, but if u playing a low lvl cash game than u really dont have a good chance because some1 will always call your raise n u have to hit the flop are hope he didnt
 
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i really hate limp poker, call pre flop is pretty terrible imo in most situations (especially with 40 BB), because then the raise comes and you really don't know what the hell the other player has. it's a terrible move to reraise back short stacked that much, because you are not going to see a fold in most situations, just committing yourself against a coinflip at best.

weak flop you may or may not have the best hand (villain may have higher PP maybe). you bet, you might just get that PP that beats you to call, you check, he either checks and gets a free card (standard move with high cards), or bets (more standard with a PP), so theres really not a very easy way to get your money in ahead with those cards. best scenario is he gets that free card probably (of course hoping it falls a brick, or gives you a set), cause even if he misses with that strong ace, you bet and that call may come.

so bottom line, low PP are pretty terrible pre flop shortstacked, and if you do want to play them, you'd best be raising from a decent position.
 
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Thanks guys this really helps alot. Now could someone please explain this pot odds stuff and implied odds? I'm a math major and very good at it but I just need a little help on what to consider. I'm very good with numbers I just don't know which numbers to consider lol.
 
bubbasbestbabe

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If your the first player to enter the pot by middle position or better and you want to play your pair you should bring it in for a raise. Limping first in in these seats is a weak play and players who have position on you may recognize this and raise to isolate you with any 2 cards, and when you call thier raise their mainly counting on the fact that they can cbet the flop and take the pot down a high percentage of the time, since most flops miss most hands. If you put up any resistance most of the time they will just fold and you will win a small pot. Raising allows you an extra way of winning, so if you get say 1 caller for instance and cbet the flop your going to take that pot down more than half the time, and your going to have built a bigger pot if you flop your set. If you get 3bet preflop you should usually just fold your smaller pairs unless stacks are deep to the point where there is enough money behind where you can show a profit by setmining.
In early position you should try to notice if the table is pretty aggressive preflop, If that is the case sometimes I will just open fold some of the weaker pairs.


This is about one of the best bits of advice for playing small PPs. Follow this and you will find yourself picking up a lot of pots. The other thing to remember is if you raise with your pps and hit your set, then it will be easier to get more of your money in. If you have a caller pf then most likely they have a good hand, something they won't be willing to lay down too easily.
 
jdeliverer

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Just to clarify: where is this 12:1 figure coming from?

The odds of getting a set on the flop is about 8.5:1. Am I missing something else that you're talking about?
 
pedroman7

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It is true you will flop a set about 8.5:1 but it won't always be good and you won't always get paid off. I think that is the reasoning behind this but not a 100% sure.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Just to clarify: where is this 12:1 figure coming from?

The odds of getting a set on the flop is about 8.5:1. Am I missing something else that you're talking about?

yes, but when you hit your set, you won't always get villain's whole stack. So you instead of 8.5:1, we use something somewhat larger, which people usually choose to be 12:1, but that somewhat arbitrary. It's a factor you should adapt to the players against you
 
Lemlywinks

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Those are very helpful articles ChuckTs
 
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yes, but when you hit your set, you won't always get villain's whole stack. So you instead of 8.5:1, we use something somewhat larger, which people usually choose to be 12:1, but that somewhat arbitrary. It's a factor you should adapt to the players against you

I don't understand this point. Can you please be more explicit about the relation between hit a set in the flop (8.5:1) and the 12:1?

I posted something similar in another thread, but again:
if you miss the set in 7.5 hands, after a 4.5BB raise (as example), then you lose 7.5*4.5 = 33.75BB
My question is who or what guarantee that when you hit your set you can extract more than that from the villain?
 
BelgoSuisse

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My question is who or what guarantee that when you hit your set you can extract more than that from the villain?

There are no guarantees in poker. And you certainly won't be able to extract that much every single time you do hit your set.

The fact that set mining is profitable is based on experience, and is only true in average over large sets of hands.
 
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I wouldn't play a small or medium pocket pair against a .40 cent raise, and those are the same games I play in a lot. I'm still grinding out a decent bankroll, so I do play a bit tight, though.
 
NineLions

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I wouldn't play a small or medium pocket pair against a .40 cent raise, and those are the same games I play in a lot. I'm still grinding out a decent bankroll, so I do play a bit tight, though.


If you're playing full stack and are up against opponents with relatively full stacks, you're losing money if you always fold them, as stated above.


And as for short stacks, that's what I've been playing for the last 1 1/2 months. It's a different strategy, you don't buy in for $4 at $10NL when you can buy in for $2. You also don't call with medium/small pairs because your own short stack automatically denies you implied odds, unless, you are in late position and have lots of limpers.


I'm fine paying off players who call my raises with medium pairs or suited connectors when I play short stack because my short stack means they made a mistake right off the bat by calling me.
 
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There are no guarantees in poker. And you certainly won't be able to extract that much every single time you do hit your set.

The fact that set mining is profitable is based on experience, and is only true in average over large sets of hands.

Let me see if I get it...
In a .05/.1 game, someone raise to .4, and you are holding a low pair. If the villain had at least .4*12 = $4.8 and you too, then the right move is call if not, then fold. (I took the 12 from the 12:1 that you spoke).
If this is correct, then you need win in average 70,8% of villain's whole stack (asuming he had $4.8) in the hands that you hit your set.

Sounds pretty difficult to me reach those numbers, because many times you hit your set but the villain had a better hand, or the board is so scary that you are afraid to bet in big.
And in addition we are forgeting the money that you lost preflop when you call a .4 bet, but another player after you make another raise and you are forced to fold.

I still want to see a link or a reference or something with a good explanation about this point. If anybody have a good site to give me like a reference of this subject or can post a good example with numbers justifing that make this call is the right move I will be eternally greatful. :p
 
ChuckTs

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Let me see if I get it...
In a .05/.1 game, someone raise to .4, and you are holding a low pair. If the villain had at least .4*12 = $4.8 and you too, then the right move is call if not, then fold. (I took the 12 from the 12:1 that you spoke).
If this is correct, then you need win in average 70,8% of villain's whole stack (asuming he had $4.8) in the hands that you hit your set.

Sounds pretty difficult to me reach those numbers, because many times you hit your set but the villain had a better hand, or the board is so scary that you are afraid to bet in big.
And in addition we are forgeting the money that you lost preflop when you call a .4 bet, but another player after you make another raise and you are forced to fold.

I still want to see a link or a reference or something with a good explanation about this point. If anybody have a good site to give me like a reference of this subject or can post a good example with numbers justifing that make this call is the right move I will be eternally greatful. :p

The only way you're really going to prove that the 'secondary' factors (like someone reraising you out of the pot, or running into a bigger set) is by calculating extremely complicated math, or by running thousands of trials of the actual hands. I've played by the rules mentioned above, so you can take my word for it and save yourself the time:
 

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