How was I outplayed? where did I make my mistake(s)

1/2 no limit cash game.

i get dealt KK in late position.

A few people limp in before me, i raise to $25 preflop. everyone folds except one person in an early position who calls. we'll call him john.

john and i have both been playing very conservatively.

i have about $300 in front of me, john has about $500.

the flop comes J J 7

he checks, i bet out $50. (about the pot.)

he calls.

turn comes 7.

he checks, i check.

flop comes rag.

he checks.

i think i have him beat. i bet out $100, hoping he would think i was trying to steal the pot. he raises me to $200. i call.

he shows JQ off suit to make the full house, clearly beating my 2 pair.

should i have bet more preflop to eliminate players holding hands like JQ?

how would you have played the hand differently?

He should have caught no piece of the board after calling that monster raise pre-flop (only hand that should hold a J there is JJ). He also played ultra-passive, but if he always plays very conservative, I might say you should have just checked the river, as only a hand that beats you calls you there.

I'm scratching my head over the play of "John" maybe he thought u were trying to steal the blinds and he just got lucky. But that does suck but you'll get them next time.

I don't think you did a lot wrong, Where as John, I would be looking for him everytime I played !

The only thing I would have done differently is check the River. I am always very cautious with paired boards, and flat callers on them. I would have been thinking maybe he had 77, and trying to trap you. Or he had ace high and wouldn't call a bet anyway.

calling that huge PF raise with JQ is just asking for trouble.He got lucky, thats all. add him to your buddy list, as in time he will lose his money.

The only thing I do differently is check the river.

With KK in that position, I don't think I'm raising anywhere near that much pre-flop. I want to isolate, but I want action as well and I'd be worried a bet that big would kill it. Was $25 a normal raise for this game? I would've raised somewhere around $10-$15.

I've got to ask a question too - are you sure your table image is really conservative?

On the face of things, it looks like 'John' played this hand fairly passively. But if he's got a read on you that says you're something other than conservative, I think he just played you perfectly: the check on the river in particular suggests that he's expecting you to bet at the pot again. With his hand, there's no way he should be passing up his last chance to bet for value unless he's dead sure that you'll put in a bet for him. And he's got to be getting that read from somewhere.

As played, I'd agree that just checking the river would have been the best option - not much that you beat is calling you here.

OzExorcist said:

I've got to ask a question too - are you sure your table image is really conservative?

Click to expand...

good point!

i guess conservative was not the word. i was playing very tight, but very aggressively. so yes, maybe he knew i would bet out.

thanks for the feedback everyone.

You raised 12.5 x BB PF and he called with JQo. And you think he plays conservatively?... er that's really loose. Or maybe everybody in your table raise huge PF like it is play money.

Maybe you mean passive. He doesn't bet out a lot. Even if he re-raise you, he mini-raised.

Well, he is just lucky. Loose + passive = donk! lol

I'm wondering...where do you play Vett? The way you described the action it sounded like a live game (as opposed to internet) and it sounded alot like most of the 1/2 NL games here in Vegas.

I wanted to note for everyone that raising to $25 pre-flop in a 1/2 game is not at all unusual in our live games, although it is probably on the high end. Also, having someone call you with JQ is not unusual either. And I hate to break it to everyone but the people that are calling with hands like JQ pre-flop are not all huge donkeys. Some are VERY good players and they call with hands like that because they expect to outplay people after the flop.

Regardless, I agree with the other posters that a bet on the river here is probably not worth it. It is POSSIBLE that you might have gotten a call from ace high or a pocket pair between 7s and Js, but most likely you're only getting called here if you're beaten. Also, even if you do make that bet on the river, you need to fold to his raise. It is quite clearly a value raise on his part and why lose the extra $100?

yes, this was a live game at the MGM, which tend to be pretty good games. the way the poker room is in the middle of the casino with a lot of floor traffic tends to bring in a lot of "oh i saw this game on t.v." type of players. hehe

The only thing I can think is that perhaps your very huge preflop raise was too big! It looks like a bluff steal.

I have noticed this before, and I too will call an outrageous bet before I will call a more standard raise. Not that I do that with any predictability. Even before I understood what a standard type raise might be, I understood that the totally outrageous raise was usually a bluff, note I said usually, not always.

In this case it is entirely possible John saw it that way, had just downed a whole Jolt Cola, and was feeling frisky, and called. Once the flop comes, you're toast.

If anything, you outplayed yourself here.

I'm confused... he was holding JQ?!?!?

What? AG, Don't you get a rise out of JQ ?