Hands from icemonkey's disaster day

Well if you read his blog you'll see he has had a pretty terrible August so far and says he's quitting, which I doubt But really, it looks like he's having a hard time, so I thought we could help him out here. With all due respect to you IM, you're probably running bad, but the way you play your hands definitely isn't optimal. I think you have a lot to work on, but you can always turn things completely around. Quitting is for quitters!

All 25nl:
Hand 1:

$27 effective stacks

Hero raises JhJs utg to $1
folds to button who calls
blinds fold

Flop comes 7h7c2h

Hero cbets $1.25
Villain raises to $2.5
Hero calls

Turn is 7h7c2h4h

Hero leads for $4.75

Why lead here? If your opponent is on something like 88, he may not call, but he may bet again. If he was bluffing, you want him to keep bluffing. If he was on a flush draw, he got there. If he flopped trips or better, you're giving him money. Check-call the turn for a reasonable amount and reevaluate the river.

Hand 2:

You 3bet to 2.75 which is way too small and I've noticed it's a recurring theme for you. Try getting the betpot script (or mess with FTP's pot button) to see what a pot raise is. That'll give you an idea of what you should be reraising to. In this instance you should bump to like $3.5 or so.

I just shove the turn, but whatever. You're always stacking there.

Hand 3:

Another recurring thing is your cbets are too small. 3/4 pot is pretty standard.

Turn was a little small too, but not terrible. You played the river fine, looks like a good fold to me.

Hand 4:

Bump it up a little more with the limper. I like the 4bb+1bb per limper rule.

cooler postflop

Hand 5:

cooler and I think you played it fine

Hand 6:

Again, you 3bet a tiny size. I don't have any reads on this guy, but I think stacking JJ in a bsb situation is just fine. Just a cooler.

Hand 7:

Raise more pf being out of position and with the limper in the pot. 1.25-1.75 or so. Flop turn and river BET MORE!

As wv mentions in the comments, look at my 50k hand break-even stretch. It sounds like it's time for a break for you (tilt never helps), but when you come back and are playing for a few months, you'll realize how small of a problem breaking even for 9k hands is.

I'm busy for the next week or so, but I'm definitely down to help you out if you need it.

OK. I won't go into the hands since ChuckTs has done a fine job at it. But I will address some of the things I see in the blog post:

Alright, that's it ... I think I quit. I just can't handle the swings anymore. I can't handle the grinding anymore. I can't handle the bad beats anymore.

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This is typical tilt. We've all been there. It will pass.

I'm just not good at poker ... either I wasn't before or my skills have diminished so bad this month to ground zero.
I'm thinking maybe I'm unable to improve anymore. I don't seem to be getting better.

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Poker takes continual study to get good at and stay good. Even Doyle Brunson says "I learn something new at Poker every day." If you don't feel like you are getting better, change your study patterns. Read more books. Analyze your Poker Tracker stats more or differently. You seem like a smart guy, so it's not like you "just won't get it". Just change up your learning.

I don't want to "drop in stakes" because even 25nl is boring when I think about the "real" value of the money being played with.

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To be successful at poker, a player must ignore the value of money. The stakes shouldn't affect the enjoyment of poker. The main thing you want to concentrate on is correct decisions. But dropping down in stakes WILL help your tilt factor and cost you less as you make mistakes and learn from them. You could even try Limit Hold'em. I think Chuck did that for a while.

But it's the caring about the game, looking forward and enjoying the game, etc etc that really has me down. Something has to change and I need to snap out of this in order for me to continue even to play 1 more hand.

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Let yourself cool down for a bit. Study and don't play for a few days (read a book, analyze your play, etc.). If you still feel like you don't care about poker, then let it go. You gotta like it to be good at it, just like everything in life.

Good stuff. So now Ice get over your little pity party, take a little break, finish reading HOC, listen to the advice here, and then get out there and kick some ass!

ok well Chuck's pretty much spot on with the hand play, but if you do plan on playing more and moving up, there's no way you'll be mentally able to if you plan to quit everytime you hit a -3 buy-in downswing. Take a look at this graph here (http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/7005/43419812bg0.jpg), letherass for 1.5 million hands and 1.1 million dollars. It looks pretty good, but look closer at the smaller parts. He went through 30k hand stretches where he lost over $20k. I believe that's ~20 buy-ins for him? Now granted he plays more so can expect bigger downswings (and upswings), but going through a -3 buy-in downswing is nothing over 10k hands. Look at bw's graph in bbv too (25nl FR as well I believe), generally upwards but like a 40k hand downswing. So while you're probably crushing 25nl and 3 buy-ins is a big loss, just use it as practice. Know that the further you go up, the less your edge is, and the more bad downswings you'll hit. Just remember that without variance, the fish wouldn't play with you. How many players worse than you can you find that'll put money on chess? How about poker? Winning poker players basically provide a lottery service to the fish. They have a shot at a big win once in a while, but the majority of the time you win. Look at your lifetime graph. Look at how this downswing compares with your graph and how insignificant it is.

But most importantly, if you're really not enjoying it or not looking forward to it, take a break. There's no reason to play when you hate playing and most likely are tilting and maybe not even playing winning poker anyway. Take a few days or a week or two off and come back refreshed. Hopefully you will enjoy it again and can get back into the game.

By the way, this was after seeing your blog post that you really aren't quitting forever, that you're just taking a break. I would not kick you when you were down like this if I hadn't seen that you already realize you're not quitting forever.

On hand 3, I don't know if I'm just a nit but I'd actually fold preflop. Raising isn't bad though but when you do I think you should be checking either flop or turn. Obviously villain-dependent but I would most likely bet flop check turn bet river or else bet flop check turn and check-call river depending on how aggressive or how bad/passive villain is.

Hey Ice,
I always read your blog, and have seen how this month has been pretty cruel t you, but dont quit! What will I read when im steaming if you stop blogging?? Seriously take a break, work on your game, take Chucks, WHVs and others advice and come back as a lean mean poker-destroying machine. Oh and just so you know your not alone this is how August started for me, look familar?

zachvac said:

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/7005/43419812bg0.jpg

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link fix

Holy crap you guys are awesome. Seriously awesome. I'll respond more once this soaks in.

I read Icemonkey9's blog on occasion, and when he was running good I remember him talking about the fact that he knew he was running hot, and that he hoped he could would keep up the positive attitude when the inevitable down. I specifically remember thinking that when the downswing hit it was going to hit him effect him a lot worse than he realizes... worse it would the average player.
I'm guessing I felt that way because I felt that he was showing a lot of emotion tied to his results. Or maybe I just figured that he was new, so he hasn't developed the thick skin that more experienced players had.

I just went back to his blog and it appears that he's on the right path. Steady, slow, learn, adapt. It's easy to go on tilt and it looks like he's approaching his return in a logical and planned out manner. That takes a bit of maturity, and I think this downswing is going to make him stronger for the future.

The link fix didnt work chuck.

ice, i had a great first 10k hands at 25nl and a breakeven next 10k, its not really that surprising and the more you expierence the swongs and breakeven patches the easier and better you will become at dealing with them.

You cant buy expierence.

link fix Poker Tracker. deux

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/7005/43419812bg0.jpg

edit: wtf this auto-editing of abbreviations

oh man losing $74 is like absolutely nothing. i was running good this month (~$70/hr, 15 BB/100 over 8.5k hands) and i lost like $300 today over 50nl and 100nl FR lol.

(tho i did manage to make $60 back playing 6 max and won a 215$ sat)

thanks chuk, most notable break even stretch is 412k to 515k hands where its pretty much flat.

Yeah if you have read my blog you've seen I've calmed down, humbled myself, and taken myself back to the roots of successful poker play. Taking it slow, constantly studying, and not tying those emotions to the highs and lows of poker.

It's weird, when all this started I never thought I would be one subject to such emotional highs and lows and tilt-factor, but now I CLEARLY see I might even be worse than most in this aspect. What helped me almost immediately "get over it" and get me on the right path were comments in my blog, emails to me, and this specific thread on CC. It really put things in perspective, and taking a step back (as I have recommended others do) helped me out a lot.

I think this 10k hand stretch definitely has opened my eyes to the need for continual study, self reflection, break taking, and to develop thicker skin when dropping 3 to 5 buyins means $500 out of my bankroll, not $75. Playing at Pechanga on Saturday night definitely helped me get my confidence back which was the final component of what i needed for my return.

Anyways, you guys are great, if you posted in this thread you can know you definitely made a difference in my poker playing life and I thank you all tremendously.

You need 8k hands where you lose 18 buy-ins and are 12 buy-ins below EV. Then you can start your bitchin'.

Hang in there man.

I got through a pretty bad stretch myself and managed to turn it around by basically doing several things mentioned in this thread.. going back to basics, taking a bit of a break, finding my love of the game again.. then coming back to the tables.

Just tossing in a vote of confidence for ya.. keep at it and you will be back. These things happen, how you deal with them determines how far you will be able to go in poker. And you gotta learn that lesson the hard way.


/This forum rocks btw

zachvac said:

Winning poker players basically provide a lottery service to the fish. They have a shot at a big win once in a while, but the majority of the time you win

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Interesting way to think about it

^^^ off topic slightly but what zach said is an excellent way to think about it..and very accurate.