Hand of the Week #1 - Overpair in three-way pot vs. aggression

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Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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Hand of the Week Info/Archive thread


$100NL, you and the button have deep, $200 stacks, the big blind is shortstacked with $50. Assume no reads, we'll get to that later.

You're dealt :10c4: :10h4: in mid position. You raise to $3, the button calls, big blind raises to $10, both you and the button call.

Flop :7h4: :6h4: :2c4:

Big blind leads for $15, so he has half his stack invested. What's our play? Here's some points you may or may not want to consider:

1) What's our play on the flop?

2) Assuming no reads, what can we say about our two opponent's ranges at this point? Following on from that, how (if at all) does button's presence in the pot affect our preflop and more importantly our flop decisions?

3) Was raise-calling preflop okay?

4) How does the big blind being shortstacked affect things? If he had us covered, would that affect optimal play either preflop or on the flop?

5) Following on from 4, let's flip our stack and the big blind's stacks around, making us the shorty. How does that change what we should be doing preflop and on the flop?

6) Are there any circumstances where a general read might affect our play here? I say a 'general' read so as to hopefully avoid any "Well if I had a read that BB only ever reraises preflop to $10 with the nuts I'd fold" and suchlike. :)
 
cjatud2012

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Looking for a little clarification here - you say were on the button, but then after the 3-bet, you say "both you and the button call", so what are the positions?
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is nearby, does it make a sound?

Similarly, if a hand doesn't exist, can it be converted?

Whining about converters belongs in the sticky thread, there will be no more off-topic stuff in here on pain of excruciating torture and death.

(though if you really can't easily comprehend the hand as posted, heaven help you if you actually were to try and read a book or something. i'm blaming cj's misread on beer, though)
 
TheDevilsLuck

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I converted your hand for you bro.

full tilt poker $0.50/$1.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players -
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

MP2: $200.00
CO: $200.00
BTN: $200.00
SB: $200.00
BB: $50.00
UTG: $200.00
UTG+1: $200.00
UTG+2: $200.00
Hero (MP1): $200.00

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is MP1 with T T
3 folds, Hero raises to $3.00, 2 folds, BTN calls $3, 1 fold, BB raises to $10.00, Hero calls $7, BTN calls $7

Flop: ($30.50) 7 6 2 (3 players)
BB bets $15.00, Hero ???
 
S

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1) What's our play on the flop?
I'd raise it to 45, though I can see multiple reasons for just calling. I prefer raising to put pressure on the button, especially without reads. If the button can call 45, I'm done with the pot unless I hit my set on the turn, if he folds I don't mind getting called by the BB. By just calling you invite the button to join in with a much wider range of hands, and you will have little info about his hand. It's safe to assume that the BB is pushing the turn no matter what it is, and you'll still be oop against the button, leaving you in a tough spot. By raising the flop our hand becomes far easier to play, the main problem with it is that we're basically playing our cards face up, and a good opponent might float the flop to get us off our hand later.

2) Assuming no reads, what can we say about our two opponent's ranges at this point? Following on from that, how (if at all) does button's presence in the pot affect our preflop and more importantly our flop decisions?
The buttons range will mainly consist of small/med pairs, sc's, Ax's. The BB can have basically ATC, his raise looks like a squeeze real bad. Most the time I think we'll see 2 high cards, occassionally a big pair and sometimes pure garbage. The buttons presence is a pain in the ass, without him in the pot the hand will play itself. Either you get it in preflop, or you jam the flop (assuming he still 3-bets). I'd never get away from an overpair on that flop against a guy I assume is bad, as he doesn't play with a full stack.

3) Was raise-calling preflop okay?
In my oppinion, no. I'd 4-bet to 30, so set-mining is to expensive for the button. If he still calls I'd tear my hair out, spit on the screen and yell "WTF" repeatedly.

4) How does the big blind being shortstacked affect things? If he had us covered, would that affect optimal play either preflop or on the flop?
If the BB had us covered, the call preflop makes more sense. Basically we'd be set-mining, and inviting the button in is not a disaster, as our hand is easy to play now. If the BB had us covered I think I'd just fold the flop-lead. We have a player behind us, the BB shows aggression and there are a boatload of cards we do not want to see hit the turn.

5) Following on from 4, let's flip our stack and the big blind's stacks around, making us the shorty. How does that change what we should be doing preflop and on the flop?
With 50 BB's I'd get it in preflop, as the 3-bet still looks like a squeeze. If we just called, I'd get it in on the flop.


6) Are there any circumstances where a general read might affect our play here? I say a 'general' read so as to hopefully avoid any "Well if I had a read that BB only ever reraises preflop to $10 with the nuts I'd fold" and suchlike. :)
Yep. If we knew the button was very aggressive with PP's in position, we could discard those from his range, or if we knew the BB 3-bets light in his blinds to steal, that could broaden his range.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Despite the fact we're readless, we do know that BB is sitting on a half-stack, which would be unusual for a good player, wouldn't it? 'Good' shortstackers (oxymoron woop woop!) will sit with less and good 'normal' players will have at least a full stack, or am I off-base in assuming this? Heck, rereading Sultice's post I notice he alluded to as much, but seemed to use it as a basis for assuming a squeeze would be more likely.

I'd argue the opposite, that maybe we're giving BB a little too much credit in assuming there's a reasonable chance of him squeezing with a marginal hand? That, plus his stack meaning that if we're going to 4-bet we're basically committing $50 preflop against him if he decides to continue in the hand, makes me a little wary.

That said, I suppose the counter-argument to that is if he is a bad player then he could be 3-betting (and not planning on folding) with something ridiculous that we have dominated purely because he thinks it's a good hand, and not as part of a premeditated squeeze play (again Sultice said as much).

Meh, I think on balance 4-betting pre is probably right, I just enjoy arguing in circles with myself. Sultice is right that when the BB inevitably calls it's suicide time though. :p
 
ChuckTs

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Calling a 3bet pf vs a half stack with a medium pair is just bad. It`s a 4bet/fold spot. We`re

Half stacked villain = bad player about %97 of the time. The degree of his `badness`is tbd, as is his aggression, and thus how wide his 3betting range and thus how well we do against it.

That said I always 4bet & stack here.

For simplicity`s sake, if he had shoved instead of squeezed (another way of putting this is just by assuming that we`re 4betting to $50 with %0 fold equity), that would be $47 to call in a $56.50 pot. That`s 56.5:47 = 1.2:1 pot odds. 1/2.2 = %45 equity needed to call.

We`d need something wider than a 99+/AQ+ range (we have %44 equity in that case) to stack which I think is entirely likely. Then consider the fact that that range is what we would need from villain to make a profitable call had he shoved, and that in reality villain only 3bet and we still have some potential fold equity, and I would be surprised if 4betting were not profitable.

The button is almost entirely irrelevant. He flatted MP/BTN 200bb deep. He has JJ+ almost never, and if he`s competant, folds all his range vs our 4bet.
 
ChuckTs

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I accidentally the ending of the first line...

We're going to have a $20 pot with $40 behind, and unless we have a really good read on his range and know exactly what flops to stack (obv never folding an overpair, in which case asking what to do on this flop in OP is pretty silly), then there's no way it can be better than getting it in pf.

Flatting also gives btn odds to tag along, further complicating things with a hand we don't really want action from, with a somewhat see-through range, OOP and deep against what's more likely to be a decent player.

So yeah, 4bet/fold pf.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Is there any situation where 3b/calling pf with the same stacks would be okay?
 
ChuckTs

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HU, I can't think of many, but there's a place for everything. Maybe a maniac who tends to 3bet almost purely air but slowplay his monsters; vs him we'd flat like JJ+ vs him to induce.

Multiway, if there were really bad fish sitting on deep stacks behind us that would call and give us implied odds with 22 for example, then flatting could be ok.

It's a bit hard for me to prove that there aren't many spots to do it mainly because it would take a postflop EV calculation which as we all know is extremely complicated, and would involve so many factors that it couldn't possibly be done accurately afaik, so I can't compare it to the relatively simple pf EV calc. So I'm going on my personal experience and knowledge, whatever that's worth.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Well, it's worth more than my personal experience. :p

If effective stacks were 100bb can we raise/call? That would take the 'bad' out of the equation with regard to the BB, and we wouldn't be so quick to want to stack off with TT given bigger stacks, but at the same time we would still be encouraging action we don't necessarily want by calling.
 
No Brainer

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If effective stacks were 100bb can we raise/call? That would take the 'bad' out of the equation with regard to the BB, and we wouldn't be so quick to want to stack off with TT given bigger stacks, but at the same time we would still be encouraging action we don't necessarily want by calling.

Are you talking about preflop here? IMO this would be a real sticky situation with 100bb stacks facing a squeeze from a decent player.

Raising would suck as he wont be flatting a 4 bet oop like ever and we cant call a shove. The only good thing about this would be if we knew BB was squeezing with a fairly wide range and we could pick up the money in the pot a lot.

Calling would suck as there are so many bad flops for us and it encourages BTN to come along for the ride as well.

Folding sucks as we probably have the best hand a large % of the time.
 
ljove

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I would fold TT preflop in lot of times.
If call then I will push all in if there is no A on the board.
You didn't post information about villain if he is loose or tight.
You have over-pair here I think there is no folding now.
 
Pokerstudent

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See below
Hand of the Week Info/Archive thread


$100NL, you and the button have deep, $200 stacks, the big blind is shortstacked with $50. Assume no reads, we'll get to that later.

You're dealt :10c4: :10h4: in mid position. You raise to $3, the button calls, big blind raises to $10, both you and the button call.
I think the button can have any Axs+, KJs+,, QJs+,KQo (loose), 55-99 (anything higher and he reraises me before the button). He could have lower suited connectors, but it's rare IMO). I think the call with 10s is acceptable, given you are ahead of the given range (because of the Ax hands). The BB could have AJs+, JJs+, KQs (rare). If he's a 3 better, he will have some suited connectors in his range. Probably 78s is the lowest.
Flop :7h4: :6h4: :2c4:

Big blind leads for $15, so he has half his stack invested. What's our play? Here's some points you may or may not want to consider:

1) What's our play on the flop? Reraise to $45.

2) Assuming no reads, what can we say about our two opponent's ranges at this point? Following on from that, how (if at all) does button's presence in the pot affect our preflop and more importantly our flop decisions?
You have the BB covered, so you are playing for stacks regardless. Against the button, if he shoves to a reraise, he's either on a draw or has an overpair. It is possible he has 77s or 66s, but it's a small part of the range. AJh+, KQh, JJs+, 77s and 66s are his calling/raising range. AJ(not h), KQ(not h) and pairs 88-1010s he probably folds to a reraise. The button's presence forces us not to shove our stack as we can be beat by many hands in his range. But if we just call, he can shove. Reraising shows that we have a strong hand and he must show added strength by shoving to get us to fold.


3) Was raise-calling preflop okay? Yes. We could have reraised to isolate the button, but it's risky to bloat the pot.

4) How does the big blind being shortstacked affect things? If he had us covered, would that affect optimal play either preflop or on the flop? Yes, we would just call the flop and see what he does on the turn.

5) Following on from 4, let's flip our stack and the big blind's stacks around, making us the shorty. How does that change what we should be doing preflop and on the flop? If we get reraised on the BB to $10, I'd bet $25 and autoshove any flop with no A. I don't think shoving preflop to a $10 bet maximizes the value of our hand. It gets weak A's and broadway cards to fold.

6) Are there any circumstances where a general read might affect our play here? I say a 'general' read so as to hopefully avoid any "Well if I had a read that BB only ever reraises preflop to $10 with the nuts I'd fold" and suchlike. Don't fully understand the question, but not putting him on a hand might result in an autoshove on the flop without thought.

This was fun. Didn't know we even had this. Looking forward to scrolling down to read the other posts!:D
 
InTheMoney198

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im min 4betting mainly to isolate the big blind and if button happens to make a move easily geet away. BB is usually doing this with a 25%-35% range IMO. if button folds its alot easier to manuever a short-med stack. Obv this route will make u call the BBs shove Preflop or post flop shove. I believe this, more often then not will get the BB allin behind and make a strong image for yourself and make you big stack,or pick up the $16 and show the table u mean business. Even if u go up against JJ+ 2/100 times ur still making the right play 98% of the time. Losing 30$-50$ 2%-5% of the time is alot less than winning 50$-250$ 95%-98% of the time...
Also 4betting PF, u dont have to see this flop 3 handed and really get into trouble or not get as much value.

Well thats my thought of this hand. Sorry for the long explanation, I havent played poker for a while, really liked this hand and really got int it.
:) :) :)
Looking forward to reading other views and analasyses (<<<dont knnow correct spelling ATM o_O) on this hand.
 
InTheMoney198

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didnt see the questions on the OP. :p this is just an explanation on how/why i would play this and my opinion to be the most profitable play in the long run.
 
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