Hand discussion 5NL 6Max

S

Schnorzel

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Hi I played this hand and was not really happy with the outcome.
5NL 6Max with 3,50 BuyIn
Hero ( $3,47 Big Blind)
Villain1 ($5,07 Mid Position)
Villain2 (5,22 Button)

UTG fold , V1 raises to 3bb (0,15$), Co fold, Button call, sb fold , Hero (QcTs) with 3.7: 1 Pot odds call.

Flop : Td8d7s
Hero: checks
V1: raises 0,24$
V2: fold
Pot 0,71$
---
The Villain looks agressive (40VP/30) with AF 3.0 but tilted, he lost 554 bb. 3-Bet around 3%
--
Hero: Reraise to 0,71$ (Pot 1,42$)
V1: Tanks and reraises himself to 2,50$.
Hero: Scarred folds.
What do you think was that call worth a shot or was his reraise a sign of strength ?
 
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baxre

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Why you raise ? Board is very wet.
I would just call it and play pot control.
How many hands did you play with him?
 
John A

John A

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Fold pre-flop. You're not playing limit poker. 3.7:1 does you no good when you'll be OOP against multiple opponents in a hand that will flop second best more than it will flop best.

As played lead the flop or call. I think the fold after the flop 3-bet is standard unless you have some read you're going with. But you should know what you're doing if you're re-raised before you raise yourself. :)
 
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Mohawk Golf

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Unless you jam and cross your fingers folding seems best to me
 
Flayst

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I will second mostly what John said. In BB with QTo, mid raises 3BB, 1 call from button, you have to consider folding right there. If we call preflop, which I would do in that spot probably 50/50 just to be sure I'm not always giving up my blind, I would definitely lead out at that flop. There's a straight flush draw on the board and you have top pair mid kicker, give it a shot and see what happens.

After you check, V1 raises a pretty standard Cbet amount, you could flat call and he may envision you going for that straight flush, opening up your playing possibilities on the turn. I also agree with Baxre that if you are staying in the hand you are going to want to keep the pot small rather than escalating the betting.
 
suby_rafael

suby_rafael

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Since we called pre flop and i personally do not mind making the call at all. We are getting a discount from the big blind and we have suited broadway cards.

Post flop raising the c-bet from villain is risky but it can also help you in determining the strength of villain's hand. Since the board is connected or wet then even if villain has over pair then we might put him into backfoot by second guessing if his hand.

So i don't mind this move either because if villain is bluffing or weak then we have a good chance of stealing the pot. If villain comes over the top (which happened), then villain is coming too strong and now it becomes an easy laydown for us which we did.

So don't mind the way you played the hand. Some people would have other lines like folding pre flop as mentioned or just flat calling the c-bet and evaluating on the turn or leading out on the flop and so on. They are all different lines and the way you played it was also fine. I don't mind any of thes lines except folding pre flop. :)
 
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Schnorzel

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Thanks for all the replies, I will try to explain my mind-set.
@baxre: I thought I had the best hand now and then but weak if we see Turn and River, so I wanted to end this hand quick. Any flush draws or straight draws shouldn´t have called my reraise, only Monsters. If I call and an Ace, King or diamond comes I would have to fold. We played only like 25 Hands a verrry small sample size.

@John: I think it is close, my plan was to either hit the monster or play aggressive check raise (If the flop comes good for me which it did). Kind of like "hit it or miss it".

@Mohawk Golf: Reraising was the most I can jam with a decent feeling.

@Flayst: The idea of leading post and making a decision after, seems reasonable. I would "delay" my bluff till I hit the draw I’m pretending making it hard for him to call. But that leaves me with no information, maybe he is playing the draw I’m pretending and I´m only increasing the pot for him. I think your idea is more profitable but harder to play, and I don´t like hard.
I like to think betting as statements and my conversation on that flop was "V1: I had a good hand and Im still sure I have the best hand". Me: „Do you have an over pair or flush draw" V1: "Yes I have".

@suby_rafael: You’re speaking right out of my brain. I think for me it´s always a good play, if I reduce the skill needed for the next decision.

Overall: It´s nice to see different opinions and lines of play. And I´m glad that it wasn´t completely horrible.

*14 Days a gazillion hands and I hit my first goal five times my deposit*
 
John A

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I'd bet a shiny nickle though that you're not winning more than -100bb/100 in those spots with those kinds of hands. I think it's a common big leak with a lot of players at these levels. The only time that it's reasonable to do is when you have some really fishy player in the pot. Otherwise it's a losing play long term when you're MW and OOP against more than one opponent with 100 bbs effective stacks. I'm just stating this based on hard data I've looked at over the years. I've had the benefit of analyzing several million hands of this kind of information multiple times. But I'd recommend running some of your own filters to confirm what I'm saying.
 
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Schnorzel

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Once again Im shocked how amazing Holdem Manager is. I checked for three things.
1. Raiser and Caller,Check Raise Fold, OOP
2. Raiser and Caller,Bet Flop,OOP
3. Raiser and Caller,Check Bet Turn, OOP
4. Raiser and Caller,Call Pre, OOP

1. Did once, lost.
2. Huge success (Won 9/11 Hands) 1082bb/100.
3. Huge success (Won 4/6 Hands) 495bb/100 (mostly Monster/Good)
4. Big loss (68 Hands) -300bb/100

Obviously the real important is only the last. The second and third are those times I called and had a hand after the flop or everyone else missed. Guess I found a biiig leak. No more OOP calling for me :D.

Back to my Hand: I tried this once and had no success, guess that doesn´t really decide much.
 
John A

John A

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Yeah, and just keep checking those. Sample sizes will play a huge role, but hands like QTo/KTo for example, are typically huge losers for everyone when they are OOP in a raised pot against 2 opponents.

It's kind of funny, but I've played poker online so long now, I've seen all the meme trends happen. Play super tight from the blinds, play super lose, 3-bet always, flat call a depolarized range, and on and on... and the original analysis I did of these spots some 10 years ago is still true today. I think this is the effect of so many bad training sites, and so much bad advice from players who win for 6 months or a year and get signed to make videos, go broke because they had a good run, and their advice lives on in until someone comes up with some new bad advice. :)

It's a little funny to sit back and watch it I have to admit. And I'm not saying all advice on training sites is bad of course.
 
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Schnorzel

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John A, I will and I already adjusted slightly, I don´t know if that is correct for cash games, but following the Gap Concept might improve my game. Only playing OOP if I beat every range that raised/called before.

Thanks for that insight from your part, while I’m on the other end. I’m trying to learn and have to choose which sites/books/videos I want to consume. Till now I read the Harrington on Holdem Books and watched some Twitch. And I realised when I try to learn from Jcarver or another pro my game simply gets worse. The type of aggression they play is ridiculous for me. I was just watching a video and the dude said something like 97o on CO folding would be a nit move. It´s not easy to pick the right choices, but I think Dan Harrington did a great job. I recommend his books. Would you agree ?
 
John A

John A

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I haven't read any of Harrington's book honestly. He was a solid tournament player, but historically, solid/decent tournament players don't tend to be the best cash game players. But I honestly can't say. I know a lot of people tend to like his books.

Yeah, and don't try and mimic the aggression, especially if it's in stakes above your own game. It will just be counter productive. It's difficult to sort out the good advice because of variance and the incompleteness of the game. You could get some really bad advice that you try twice and it works, but really long term it's a losing play. All I can say is probably 85%+ of the guys who have done training videos across all the major training sites are broke now. That should probably tell you something. Who the 15% are that know what they are doing, and are focused on long term +EV plays isn't easy to navigate when you're learning the game.
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

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Why are you sitting with $3.47? Always sit with a full stack in cash games its so important not just to maximize value when you win a big hand but also because regs will see your fishy looking stack and pick on you.
QT offsuit is a clear fold preflop here unless you are a super good lag or up against guys who play atc Suby Raph always taking the loose lines!!.
When you play QT you are looking to make a well concealed straight not paired hands that are often dominated especially against a raisers range.
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

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Harringtons books are all very solid and some of his detailed analysis is outstanding.
The only place they fall down on is value betting. He routinely advocates checking medium strength hands on the river on the basis that nothing worse calls and better hands will raise you.
This may be true higher up the food chain but falls short in micro stakes games where we know fish will call with worse often any part of the board. Which is why value betting is a must for good winrates.
His outstanding bluff at one of the wsop main event tables with 62 is still widely regarded as a masterstroke.
 
skrsh76

skrsh76

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this is one of my leaks.. should stop playing QT an KT from OOP :)
 
Aces2w1n

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Yes you are definetly going to be bleeding from the blinds if your playing those marginal hands.

It's slightly different if say you 3bet the guy preflop especially if you know he's a lot wider and we can get to headsup with someone who's tilted.

Against tighter players on the CO or Button i'm more likely to 3bet light and steal.

Against loose players i'm more hoping to isolate the fish and go into the flop headsup and then make my decision depending on the flop.
Top pair Good kicker is usually a decent hand against these fish and we can make a lot of money from these marginal hands :) ... But just remember they do wakeup with better hands sometimes.

Have fun!
 
H

hffjd2000

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Preflop, pot odds is good but cards are marginal.

Postflop, 2 lines for me and your play is one of them. Good job.
 
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greedisgood

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very drawy board, I would call as his shove looks like a draw pushing. You'll never have a dominant flip but c/r/f TP on a wet board is a losing line in general.

as you read him very agressive, he'll probably plays his draws very agressive too?

and for your preflop play: I prefer draw type hands IP and would fold. but on a loose table QT could make you money by hitting pairs.
 
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Schnorzel

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I was sitting with only 70bb because the rest of the table did the same, except my villain. Thats why your not only learn from one source I guess : ).

Do you think preflop raise is viable in that situation, or was that only a speculative if ?

Greed that was my exactly my feeling after that session, either I´m crushed or in a decent shape. Interesting view, everything I could have done is -EV, because of my loose Preflop.
 
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