getting beat on the river

To set the mood PARKY has been calling 65-70%, tried to bluff post flop a few times got burned and is down about $10 when this hand goes down. I am up a few bucks and have been playing tight and aggressive and can sense some fear...

STAGE #629966812: HOLDEM NO LIMIT $0.10 - 2007-04-12 23:54:39 (ET)
Table: JAMIE AVE (real money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - ME ($11.40 in chips)
Seat 4 - PARKY ($4.58 in chips)
Seat 5 - STEPHNKG ($7.50 in chips)
Seat 6 - AAAWINKKK ($4.51 in chips)
Seat 1 - NINJAKID ($19.60 in chips)
Seat 2 - IPLAY27OS ($7.09 in chips)
PARKY - Posts small blind $0.05
STEPHNKG - Posts big blind $0.10
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to ME [Kd Qd]
AAAWINKKK - Folds
NINJAKID - Calls $0.10
IPLAY27OS - Raises $0.30 to $0.30
ME - Calls $0.30
PARKY - Calls $0.25
STEPHNKG - Calls $0.20
NINJAKID - Folds
*** FLOP *** [Qs 4s 7h]
PARKY - Checks
STEPHNKG - Checks
IPLAY27OS - Checks
ME - Bets $1.10
PARKY - All-In(Raise) $4.28 to $4.28
STEPHNKG - Folds
IPLAY27OS - Folds
ME - Calls $3.18
*** TURN *** [Qs 4s 7h] 8♠
*** RIVER *** [Qs 4s 7h 8s] 9♥
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ME - Shows [Kd Qd] (One pair, queens)
PARKY - Shows [9s 9c] (Three of a kind, nines)
PARKY Collects $9.41 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($9.86) | Rake ($0.45)
Board [Qs 4s 7h 8s 9h]
Seat 1: NINJAKID Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: IPLAY27OS Folded on the FLOP
Seat 3: ME (dealer) HI:lost with One pair, queens [Kd Qd - B:Qs,P:Qd,P:Kd,B:9h,B:8s]
Seat 4: PARKY (small blind) won Total ($9.41) All-In HI$9.41) with Three of a kind, nines [9s 9c - P:9s,B:9h,P:9c,B:Qs,B:8s]
Seat 5: STEPHNKG (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 6: AAAWINKKK Folded on the POCKET CARDS

What should I have done differently? Should I have bet more on the flop and advertise I hit top pair on the table? As fishy as this guy was playing I thought a call to his all-in was justified and after seeing how things turned out I feel I made the right choice and just got unlucky. Your opinions?

Later on at the same table this hand happens against a guy that is playing a loose passive aggressive style with mixed results.

STAGE #629998561: HOLDEM NO LIMIT $0.10 - 2007-04-13 00:32:24 (ET)
Table: JAMIE AVE (Real Money) Seat #1 is the dealer
Seat 1 - ARMAGEDDON07 ($10.75 in chips)
Seat 2 - IPLAY27OS ($14.28 in chips)
Seat 3 - ME ($8.97 in chips)
Seat 4 - CLMARKS ($2.95 in chips)
Seat 5 - STEPHNKG ($14.20 in chips)
Seat 6 - GRANDPACECIL ($4 in chips)
IPLAY27OS - Posts small blind $0.05
ME - Posts big blind $0.10
GRANDPACECIL - Posts $0.10
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to ME [8c 9h]
CLMARKS - Folds
STEPHNKG - Folds
GRANDPACECIL - Checks
ARMAGEDDON07 - Folds
IPLAY27OS - Calls $0.05
ME - Checks
*** FLOP *** [8h Qc 9c]
IPLAY27OS - Bets $0.30
ME - Raises $1.40 to $1.40
GRANDPACECIL - Folds
IPLAY27OS - Calls $1.10
*** TURN *** [8h Qc 9c] 10♦
IPLAY27OS - Checks
ME - Bets $3
IPLAY27OS - Calls $3
*** RIVER *** [8h Qc 9c 10d] K♣
IPLAY27OS - Bets $3
ME - Calls $3
*** SHOW DOWN ***
IPLAY27OS - Shows [10c 7c] (Flush, king high)
ME - Mucks
IPLAY27OS Collects $14.35 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($15.10) | Rake ($0.75)
Board [8h Qc 9c 10d Kc]
Seat 1: ARMAGEDDON07 (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: IPLAY27OS (small blind) won Total ($14.35) HI$14.35) with Flush, king high [10c 7c - B:Kc,B:Qc,P:10c,B:9c,P:7c]
Seat 3: ME (big blind) HI: [Mucked] [8c 9h]
Seat 4: CLMARKS Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: STEPHNKG Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: GRANDPACECIL Folded on the FLOP

Should I have bet more on the flop and turn to try to muscle this guy out of a flush draw? Did he get lucky or did I get out played? What would you do?

Thanks in advance!

1st hand: the guy was on tilt and is very loose so he was gonna call anyway. Money went in and you were a huge favourite but he got lucky. Dont sweat 2 much over it.

2nd hand: you did put in a good raise but id reraise that flop more because you have low 2 pairs on a very fragile board:

A queen could hit a higher 2 pair, theres a straight out there as well as a flush. So i try 2 end the hand on flop.

alan1983 said:

1st hand: the guy was on tilt and is very loose so he was gonna call anyway. Money went in and you were a huge favourite but he got lucky. Dont sweat 2 much over it.

2nd hand: you did put in a good raise but id reraise that flop more because you have low 2 pairs on a very fragile board:

A queen could hit a higher 2 pair, theres a straight out there as well as a flush. So i try 2 end the hand on flop.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the advise, how much more would you raise on the second senario? Push with all-in or raise $2-$4? I've been running into a lot of these situations lately and have lost a lot of them..I must say they have hurt my confidence but it's reasuring to hear in the the run I'm doing things right for the most part. Hopefully a few adjustments on bet size will help.

One more senario to ask about..I'm pretty sure I know the answer already.

STAGE #628750422: HOLDEM NO LIMIT $0.10 - 2007-04-11 18:43:24 (ET)
Table: DEER DR (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer
Seat 6 - SOFTWARE ($2 in chips)
Seat 1 - LAXKID2703 ($4.80 in chips)
Seat 2 - ME ($9.65 in chips)
Seat 3 - ESPILON412 ($12.70 in chips)
Seat 4 - GOLEM47 ($4.25 in chips)
Seat 5 - XXXBBTXXX ($3.60 in chips)
LAXKID2703 - Posts small blind $0.05
ME - Posts big blind $0.10
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to ME [3d 4h]
ESPILON412 - Calls $0.10
GOLEM47 - Calls $0.10
XXXBBTXXX - Calls $0.10
SOFTWARE - Folds
LAXKID2703 - Calls $0.05
ME - Checks
*** FLOP *** [2s 3h 2d]
LAXKID2703 - Checks
ME - Bets $0.50
ESPILON412 - Folds
GOLEM47 - Folds
XXXBBTXXX - Raises $1 to $1
LAXKID2703 - Folds
ME - Calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [2s 3h 2d] 3♣
ME - Bets $0.60
XXXBBTXXX - Calls $0.60
*** RIVER *** [2s 3h 2d 3c] 2♥
ME - Bets $2
XXXBBTXXX - All-In $1.90
ME - returned ($0.10) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ME - Shows [3d 4h] (Full house, threes full of twos)
XXXBBTXXX - Shows [8c 2c] (Four of a kind, twos)
XXXBBTXXX Collects $7.15 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($7.50) | Rake ($0.35)
Board [2s 3h 2d 3c 2h]
Seat 1: LAXKID2703 (small blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 2: ME (big blind) HI:lost with Full house, threes full of twos [3d 4h - B:3h,P:3d,B:3c,B:2s,B:2h]
Seat 3: ESPILON412 Folded on the FLOP
Seat 4: GOLEM47 Folded on the FLOP
Seat 5: XXXBBTXXX won Total ($7.15) All-In HI$7.15) with Four of a kind, twos [8c 2c - B:2s,B:2h,B:2d,P:2c,P:8c]
Seat 6: SOFTWARE (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS

I'm thinking if I had it to do over again I would bet more on the turn but I really don't think he would have laid it down if I put him all in at that point. More bad luck? I'm quite new to playing for real money +-1500 hands total but this kind of play is really pi$$ing me off. I know it's poker and I have a good time playing no matter what, I guess I just want to know if it's more my undoing or untimely luck that will eventually see me with a positive balance sheet...Thanks for your thoughts.

You played 2 of the 3 just fine.

The guy did a semi bluff to see if you really had a Q and got caught. The river just bailed him out. A 2 outs hurts. You played this one just fine.

The second one the first player bets the pot at 30c and you more than double it. That is a good indication that you have top pair beat. Problem is he had open ended straight and flush draw. He has 9 cards for the flush and 6 for the straight. 15 outs gives him about a 60% chance to hit one of his cards on the turn or river. He can call just about any bet becuase both of his draws are better than your 2 pair or even a flopped set. The other way to look at this hand is that it is such a scary flop that you should not really bet on the flop since there is a good chance a scare card can come on the turn or river. I don't like your turn and river bets since a J will crush your two pair. He called your large reraise. What did you think he had? I think you were overly aggressive on a very scary flop after the turn and was just dumping money into a pot that is hard for you to win.

Third one is just a case of monster hand vs monster hand. Have you ever folded a full house. He probably thought he was ahead. A one outer really hurs but is happens to even the best players.

1st hand: there is nothing you can do there. You made a $1.10 bet in a $1.20 pot. Your bet was fine and he got very lucky hitting his 2 outer.

2nd hand: again you did right. You raised his 30c bet to $1.40 on the flop. That was fine. On the turn you bet $3.00 and the pot was $3.10. He called without having the right odds and got lucky. In the long run he will lose playing like that and you will win. Also, in that hand he had a straight and a flush draw. Some people are just not able to fold that type of hand, right or wrong it is. I'm convinced he will call the turn no matter what, so don't worry about it. In any case, you bet the right amount to not make his call profitable in the long run. There isn't much more you can do. You played it well.

3rd hand: Yeah, that's a heartbreaker. The only thing I can say is that it did appear clear that he had a duece when he reraised you on the flop, so you should have folded there, unless he was a loose reraiser. I think your turn bet is fine, because more than that he might fold which isn't good since you're clearly ahead so we want him to hang around (he did have $2.50 left), we don't want him to lay it down. On the river you could have check/folded but I'm not going to argue your call, since it obviously depends on what read you have on this guy.

In conclusion, don't get discouraged. No limit holdem is a game that will constantly put you to test with tough decisions, and will deliver bad beats as well. To everyone. We all are trying to learn and improve and, w/o any doubt, there are some growing pains. I'm sure you will reach the positive "balance sheet" that you are trying to achieve, it looks as if you have the right attitude, and you won't always get unlucky as in those first 2 hands.

I suggest, also, to read the articles section, you can pick up some good tips there and get familiar with some concepts like pot odds. I see that you're wondering if you bet the right amount on those hands. You will find some interesting concepts there that will help you understand better what to do next time. GL

i hate getting beat on the river it sux lol but i love winning on it hmmmmmmmmmm oxy moron i guess accept the good and bad

He called your large reraise. What did you think he had? I think you were overly aggressive on a very scary flop after the turn and was just dumping money into a pot that is hard for you to win.

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Good point, and to answer your question I pretty much stopped thinking about what he might have and was more worried about what he might draw if he stayed in the hand..Therefore jamming all the money in to make him think twice. I definitely see your point now. Looking back, if anything I should have laid down on the river. I guess I should chalk this up to experience and always keep my mind in check by thinking about what everyone else has.

i hate getting beat on the river it sux lol but i love winning on it hmmmmmmmmmm oxy moron i guess accept the good and bad

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Touche, good way to look at it.

Thank you to all for the advise and constructive criticism.

It's unfortunate when that happens and I always try to avoid all in's before the flop even with a good hand as it is way too unpredictable and you can pay and lose focus due to a bad beat.