General question: Mid pairs OOP

F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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I could fish out a hand, but it's the generic situation I'm not sure about:

I raise a mid pair (let's say 88) in middle position and a 22/18 type reg flats on the button. He 3-bets 8%. Blinds fold. Flop comes:

[Ks][10s][4h]

We're 100BBs deep. He folds to c-bets 45% of the time, and raises c-bets 18% of the time. What's my plan for this hand? Can I do anything but check/fold? If I decide to make a play, what do I balance it with?
 
Chris_TC

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On that board I'd check-fold like every time. Most of his betting and calling hands have way too much equity, and we're OOP.
I'd need a VERY specific read to do anything else.
 
eNTy

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I'd like to hear some advice on this too.

I feel this is one of the many situations I spew postflop and really need a guideline to play these type of hands.
 
lickmehard

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If the villain flat calls wouldn't a Cbet be worth an attempt? Especially with his stats?
 
BelgoSuisse

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If the villain flat calls wouldn't a Cbet be worth an attempt? Especially with his stats?

Someone who flats from BTN and calls that many cbets is a floater, i.e. he'll bet a huge range if we cbet flop and check turn, and then we'll end up putting a huge amount of money in with a very marginal hand.
 
F Paulsson

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Ok. I'm defaulting to a check/fold here, but it just feels so weak, and if he catches on (and I have reason to believe he might) then he'll start calling an even wider range with position on me preflop in order to just bet whenever I check. I guess that I can balance this by check/raising flops with my stronger hands, or even go for a bet flop/check-raise turn with weaker hands than I otherwise would. But with 88, my bet would be nothing more than a bluff.
 
BelgoSuisse

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At the moment, if there's a decent reg somewhat to my left who does that, my default reaction is just to leave the table.
 
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F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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At the moment, if there's a decent reg somewhat to my left who plays does that, my default reaction is just to leave the table.
I have much the same philosophy, but if I'm at the table to begin with it's usually because I have a huge fish on my right. But I try to stay away from these tables if I can.
 
Chris_TC

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Ok. I'm defaulting to a check/fold here, but it just feels so weak, and if he catches on (and I have reason to believe he might)
He won't catch on because he doesn't see your cards. Sometimes you just check/fold after raising preflop. Not a big deal imo.
As far as balance goes, yeah, you can check-raise/check-call big hands. You can also check-call with marginal hands. Check-calling 88 on K74r is perfectly reasonable.
 
zachvac

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If he floats you a lot what about firing 2 barrels? Obviously he can adjust but then you can re-adjust etc.
 
F Paulsson

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If he floats you a lot what about firing 2 barrels? Obviously he can adjust but then you can re-adjust etc.

I don't think betting 88 twice is good on this board. Or do you mean as a general strategy?
 
zachvac

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I don't think betting 88 twice is good on this board. Or do you mean as a general strategy?

What I mean is that if he floats the flop too much and doesn't float the turn a ton, it's obviously a good spot to double barrel. If he floats the flop and turn too much but folds a river bet we can fire 3. If he floats all 3 light we just C/F this and 3-barrel for thin value.

Another alternative is just check-folding this flop and also checking our monsters on this board (ie same logic we use for cbetting K83r 100%, that our range is much better than theirs, is the opposite, so we can check pretty much our entire range). Of course then we have to balance our C/R range in which case I think the best way to do it is simply C/R our monsters and draws on this board.

But on the other hand I think balancing is over-rated unless you're playing high-stakes with the same opponents again and again. I think it's fine to check-fold this and not balance it at all (ie if you're checking this flop, you're folding). 99% of opponents won't even notice it and obviously just because they haven't seen you C/R doesn't mean they don't think it's possible. So personally I just C/F this because it basically crushes our opponent's range, they're going to float wide, and I think betting without the intention of at least double barreling good turns is throwing away money. But if you are intent on balancing I think either of the previous 2 lines I mentioned (barrel until they fold/thin value barrel and the C/R monsters/draws lines) would be decent adjustments.
 
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