Folding Top set??

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leandr0s

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I dont know if i played this hand poorly for many reasons. but i want your advice mainly on the river action. we are dealing with an NL2 full ring zoom game so i have no reads on the players nor HUD numbers. i sit with almost 2$ (full stack)

UTG opens for 4bb i am in the button with JJ.

i have come to realise that people in NL2 tend to open for 4bb their stronger holdings and especially when it comes to opening UTG. we are both pretty deep and even if i am at the button a 3bet is rarely going to get me action by worse hands. (maybe a middle pair is going to call but then fold if they dont catch their set) so i decide to play it safe in position and call

big blind (also full stack) calls as well..

pot is 0,25$

Flop comes: J,3,2 rainbow.

this is the kind of flop i love. now i wish he has QQ+ so i can play it fast and get the money in ASAP. the BB checks and the initial raisor (to my disappointment) checks back... this board is pretty dry... at best the initial raisor has 88-10,10.. and is probably going to pay 2 streets of value at most. whether i bet flop+turn, or turn+river. but mainly he is going to have many broadway combos... i am not really afraid of the big blind... he had a better price to pay preflop so his range is pretty wide. apart from the obvious 4,5 theres not really any other draw i need protection against. so the best play for value here is to check back and let one of them catch up or bluff, since i figure both of them are drawing almost dead.

Turn comes the 7h. putting a flush draw on the board.

it is again checked to me. here is my chance to get value from the middle pairs and also charge the potential flush draw. so i bet 2/3pot (0,16$) and i get called by the big blind. i currently put the big blind on a flush draw or maybe a small suited connector with a 7... UTG folds. If the flush completes and it is checked to me i am planing to bet and fold to a raise. and even consider folding to a donk bet.

pot is 0,57$

river: 9s... so the flush missed... and then the BB open shoves for 1,6$... almost 3 times the pot...

what the hell... i have top set.. i tank about it. the only hands that make sense and have me beat are Qh10h and 10h8h... would he call with a naked gutshot? (to add more combos of the Q10 and 10,8?) ... i think 99,9% he is not bluffing. this is a value shove. having a set doesnt make sense... maybe 99 makes sense. (2 combos) i think if he had any other set he would have probably bet the turn... (missed the check raise on the flop).. or even check raise the turn with the flush draw? well on the other hand i have seen way too many stupid plays in microstakes to be able to fold top set in such a board. if there were 3 to a flush i would muck it probably... but could it be that he got one of the 3 outs that beat me and get paid?? the math says fold... but how much discipline does it take to fold top set...

what would you do in that spot? (try to answer honestly)

for the record i ended up calling after tanking and trying to get some info by writing Q10h on the chat and not getting an answer... he had 10h8h... bad thing is if i made the correct fold i would have never known about it... it really is a lose-lose scenario..

p.s. please no comments like "if you bet the flop 10,8 would have folded so you would have. better to win a small pot than lose a big one LOLz" if you even thought about that dont bother commenting. thanks. bye
 
IPlay

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Checking flop is meh, you said it yourself when villains at 2NL raise 4x UTG it usually means a big hand. Maybe he peels with AK/AQ or maybe he has QQ+ and thought it would be hard to get action on that board. With that said I don't mind checking either. At these stakes I probably call river since villain can show up with 99, 97, 77, J9 missed flush draws etc vs Qh10h, 10h8h that beat you. I don't think you can put naked gut shots in his range but maybe. It is kind of hard to say readless.
 
ChinooTW

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Ok, I´m not going to say that I´d bet with that flop. I think the call is OK, you are losing only with 8 10, it´s little probabbly that he had it. I belive he can have 99, 97 so I would tanked a little and called like you. Next time, you and anothers readers will bet with that flop, always can appear a runner runner/bad beat.
 
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Bet flop, bet turn, bet river. We do block a ton of Jx combos with our set, but we miss a ton of value when Villain does have a J. We can also get called by a ton of worse hands like A4s/45s/57s chasing an OESD/GS, any pair (yes, fish will call with bottom/middle pair multi-way, especially middle pair), 44-1010, etc. And if their pair/PP improves to trips/a set, you are going to get paid off anyway, so just bet the flop. Multi-way there is a reasonable chance someone got a piece of the flop, and people can get sticky with AK/AQ/2 overs here.

As played, folding river is fine. Huge overbets shoves are 99% always the nuts. I also find that opponents never donk bluff the river with a missed draw when we bet the turn, only if we check. Also don't think 99 overbet shoves 3x the pot. 97 doesn't do that either. We also aren't getting a good price to call. And I don't think we lose to Q10s. There's no 8 on board.
 
BogdanStark

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Relax, he bit you. Just go on... you know, that is not so trouble and awful badbit, sometimes happens worse a lot, believe me!

Your opponent hide his set of Jacks and gone... and you continue play with pocket 99, and try to do what? Get next 9 at turn and river? when J already on the board? Only 4,5 % to win on turn with pocket 99 when opponent has high pair... Just think about it ! ! !
 
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leandr0s

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Relax, he bit you. Just go on... you know, that is not so trouble and awful badbit, sometimes happens worse a lot, believe me!

Your opponent hide his set of Jacks and gone... and you continue play with pocket 99, and try to do what? Get next 9 at turn and river? when J already on the board? Only 4,5 % to win on turn with pocket 99 when opponent has high pair... Just think about it ! ! !

lol... i had the set of jacks. he had 10,8s. and there was not even betting on the flop.. cant really tell if you replied to the correct thread or just didnt read this one
 
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We are readless at 2NL. You cant go around folding top set over a gut shot runner runner straight that might of got there. Villains over value hands a ton at this stake and spaz bluff. Itz 2nl zoom.

In the future dont include results if you want non results orienated feed back.
 
teepack

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You were trying to build a pot and you succeeded. You just got unlucky. Honestly, you did nothing pre- and post-flop to let on that you had a strong hand. After you allowed him to see the turn, which gave him a straight and flush draw, you really could have done nothing to chase him away, which meant you were already doomed.

Also, how did Q-10 have you beat? The board was J-2-3-7-9?
 
Aces2w1n

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Just focus on your pre/flop play.

Results/river play isn't important because we shouldn't have been put in this spot.


Pre you 4bet because weaker hands will call such as AQ or AK even TT 99 88 perhaps depending on the villain.

And we lose value by not 4betting when we do hit our set. And make it harder to get stacks in. Also we lose fold equity and we lose tempo but we do have position which is okay, but we lose value

Don't be scared!!
 
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Just focus on your pre/flop play [...] we shouldn't have been put in this spot. [...] Pre you 4bet [...] Don't be scared!!

*Would this be a 4-bet or a 3-bet?

I agree with this. Being in position and having the blinds left to act would actually be my reasoning for being "less" cautious. Somehow, I feel like raising is more cautious than calling, because calling allows the blinds to close the action and see the flop for less, with marginal hands. In contrast to your idea that 4x in EP at NL2 means a big hand, I have found that NL2 players are less likely to be positionally aware. In my experience, there are many players who will call a single 4x raise, out of position. Calling a 4x raise on the button may also be considered a bit sneaky, because a player in position may be more likely to call with more marginal hands. A call might make your hand look less like the big hand that it was, and playing this situation in a sneaky manner--though that was not your intention--seems more risky than playing it aggressively.

p.s. please no comments like "if you bet the flop 10,8 would have folded so you would have. better to win a small pot than lose a big one LOLz" if you even thought about that dont bother commenting. thanks. bye

Why are you opposed to this possibility, or the suggestion thereof? I don't agree with the exact sentiment--particularly, reasoning that "T8 would have folded" for sure, and "LOLz"--but why are you opposed to the idea that you could have bet the flop? This is a genuine question, and I am not trying to insinuate an idea.
 
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MinhANguyen

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*Would this be a 4-bet or a 3-bet?

I agree with this. Being in position and having the blinds left to act would actually be my reasoning for being "less" cautious. Somehow, I feel like raising is more cautious than calling, because calling allows the blinds to close the action and see the flop for less, with marginal hands. In contrast to your idea that 4x in EP at NL2 means a big hand, I have found that NL2 players are less likely to be positionally aware. In my experience, there are many players who will call a single 4x raise, out of position. Calling a 4x raise on the button may also be considered a bit sneaky, because a player in position may be more likely to call with more marginal hands. A call might make your hand look less like the big hand that it was, and playing this situation in a sneaky manner--though that was not your intention--seems more risky than playing it aggressively.



Why are you opposed to this possibility, or the suggestion thereof? I don't agree with the exact sentiment--particularly, reasoning that "T8 would have folded" for sure, and "LOLz"--but why are you opposed to the idea that you could have bet the flop? This is a genuine question, and I am not trying to insinuate an idea.

I think he's more opposed to the idea of someone bashing on his flop check for the reason "better to win a small pot than to lose a big one." I actually responded with why a flop bet was better than a check here multi-way, and it's not because it's better to win a small pot than to lose a big one.

Although I'm a six-max player, I actually think calling OTB a 4x raise from UTG full-ring with JJ is super standard. Some even flat JJ from UTG raises in 6-max, but I think that's way too nitty unless the UTG raiser is something like 12/10.
 
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leandr0s

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when i said i dont want answers suggesting making a cbet to fold 108s because as it happened later it came to suck out on me with runner-runner. this results oriented approach is really stupid imo. you rarely get to make top set so when you do you should try and get max value. and in a board like that i felt that any hand was basically drawing dead. when the flush and straight possibility came i bet hard.. 2/3 pot..
 
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This is a little random, but I just read a comment on another thread that suggested scrimitzu's Twitch stream. I am watching it now, for the first time, and he is doing some serious analysis of Zoom hands. I'm not sure if this is generally the type of content that this streamer broadcasts, but I figured that you might want to check him out, if you haven't already heard of him. I'm assuming that you play a lot of Zoom, based solely on your thread here, so excuse me if it's not totally your thing.

I'm skimming through his bio, and it looks like the majority of his streams are coaching sessions. It's pretty sweet stuff.
 
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MinhANguyen

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when i said i dont want answers suggesting making a cbet to fold 108s because as it happened later it came to suck out on me with runner-runner. this results oriented approach is really stupid imo. you rarely get to make top set so when you do you should try and get max value. and in a board like that i felt that any hand was basically drawing dead. when the flush and straight possibility came i bet hard.. 2/3 pot..

You should still bet the pot for reasons stated above ^^^^. Especially since it is multi-way. But yeah a comment about betting simply to take the pot down and to avoid losing a large pot would be ridiculous.

Heads-up with the PFR UTG raiser I'm checking though.
 
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MinhANguyen

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Can you explain why this is the case?



I understand what you meant, now. I thought that you meant betting the flop, in general.

Because UTG ranges in full ring are super tight. Most opening ranges are JJ+ AQs+, and when he 4x's it UTG the PFR isn't messing around. We can't 3-bet JJ for value against such a tight range, and it's pretty likely that we'll get 4-bet and have to fold our equity and set value. If you 3-bet JJ here you're basically turning it into a bluff, and could by that logic 3-bet UTG ranges with 22-1010.
 
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vwls

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Because UTG ranges in full ring are super tight.

That line of thinking makes sense, but do you think that it applies to NL2 as strictly as to higher limits? It would obviously be easier to discern with more information about the player, but since we have no read in this hand...let me interrupt myself, here...now that I think about it, I guess the answer is "yes", particularly when we have no read on the player. Do you agree with this?

That being said, I do find that many players at the micro-stakes aren't totally aware of how position effects their game plan. But, I probably shouldn't broadly draw conclusions about a player with whom I have no history. Is there a type of player that you would 3-Bet against, in this situation? And from the perspective of a 6-max game, are you saying that you would usually 3-Bet in this position? Is this because you expect UTG ranges to be wider in a 6-max game?
 
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MinhANguyen

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That line of thinking makes sense, but do you think that it applies to NL2 as strictly as to higher limits? It would obviously be easier to discern with more information about the player, but since we have no read in this hand...let me interrupt myself, here...now that I think about it, I guess the answer is "yes", particularly when we have no read on the player. Do you agree with this?

That being said, I do find that many players at the micro-stakes aren't totally aware of how position effects their game plan. But, I probably shouldn't broadly draw conclusions about a player with whom I have no history. Is there a type of player that you would 3-Bet against, in this situation? And from the perspective of a 6-max game, are you saying that you would usually 3-Bet in this position? Is this because you expect UTG ranges to be wider in a 6-max game?

Yeah I think we should give unknowns some credit unless proven otherwise. I don't expect people to be opening light UTG full-ring like KJo, KQo, A10o, suited aces, suited connectors to make JJ a 3-bet for value. In this situation I'd only 3-bet the UTG raiser if he were a maniac, and probably call off a shove.

Yeah I 3-bet JJ as a default from any postion vs any opening position. UTG ranges are a lot wider 6-max, and people don't 4-bet enough. And people can call your 3-bet with JJ with worse. 1010, 99, 88, suited broadways, random junk, suited aces, etc. A lot of people will flat AK and QQ to a 3-bet, so I don't have to worry too much about getting 4-bet and having to fold a premium hand.
 
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