Fold KK pre flop ?

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BigStakes101

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pokerstars Game #15975523189: Hold'em No Limit (2$/4$) - 2008/03/18 - 10:51:52 (ET)
Table 'Anius IV' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Donkey71 ($451 in chips)
Seat 2: BigStakes101 ($297 in chips)
Seat 3: PokerERG ($150 in chips)
Seat 4: AllInZiZi ($894 in chips)
Seat 5: xChris007($551 in chips)
Seat 6: Neo_2279 ($118 in chips)
PokerERG: posts small blind $2
AllInZiZi: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BigStakes101 [Ks Kc]
xChris007: folds
Neo_2279: folds
Donkey71: folds
BigStakes101: raises $12 to $28
PokerERG: folds
AllinZiZi: raises $30 to $58

Before i tell you the outcome lemme know what you guys would do ...

This guy has been playing Loose Aggresive but hasn't made this big of a pre-flop raise yet... What's the best play from your point of view?
 
dj11

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If your read on him is right, that he is LAG, I would likely think he had a worse hand than usual. Of course one of the ugly little details about LAG play is that pesky 'less predictable' aspect.

I can't think about folding here tho. Well, OK. I can think about it, but would rapidly discount all that thinking.

Caviat. I don't play these stakes. Similar play at stakes I do play and that would be my action. NL$25 would be my experience.

If you've got a big br behind you somewhere, how can you consider folding this? If you don't have that big br behind you, why are you at this table? That you posted this hand suggests that somewhere in your mind you have doubt, and scared money.
 
B

BigStakes101

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I have a reason for posting this and my br was roughly around 1.5k and i bought in for 150$ Just curious about how any of you would of played this. Ex. reraise, flat call, push, fold etc.. How much of a reraise if a A spiked on the flop ...
 
dj11

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Given that extra info, I call. One of several things will happen;

1 No ace on the flop--- push hard unless it came out flushed or str8.

2 You hit a set - min raise. Especially useful against a LAG. The min raise looks like a halfhearted blocking bet to a LAG and they often just can't help themselves.

3 Ace on the flop ---yuck! Even with A-rag, you're beat here, and LAGS love ACE RAG! If perhaps he has seen you min raise with success, a min raise here might work. If you bet 3x here you could easily take it down, but this is when to consider mucking should you encounter resistance. Even a call of a bet here might be considered resistance. An ace on board is not a good thing here.

I'm responding here largely to keep this thread up top. There are several cash game players here who will hopefully chime in and likely tell you what a donk I am.;)

Also I reserve the right to recant anything said:D
 
zachvac

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Given that extra info, I call. One of several things will happen;

1 No ace on the flop--- push hard unless it came out flushed or str8.

2 You hit a set - min raise. Especially useful against a LAG. The min raise looks like a halfhearted blocking bet to a LAG and they often just can't help themselves.

3 Ace on the flop ---yuck! Even with A-rag, you're beat here, and LAGS love ACE RAG! If perhaps he has seen you min raise with success, a min raise here might work. If you bet 3x here you could easily take it down, but this is when to consider mucking should you encounter resistance. Even a call of a bet here might be considered resistance. An ace on board is not a good thing here.

I'm responding here largely to keep this thread up top. There are several cash game players here who will hopefully chime in and likely tell you what a donk I am.;)

Also I reserve the right to recant anything said:D

Sorry, but I absolutely hate this play. What kind of range are we looking at? If opponent has Ax (probably AK at this point), we want his money in the middle before he can get away from a missed flop. If he has AA, with your example we're paying him off with our stack every flop he doesn't set. So we still pay off the one hand that beats us while taking away value from the hands that we beat (crush I may add). Also, you have a little under 75 bbs. I think there's an error in the HH since you are open raising $12 but it gets to $28. When you add the points that:

1. it's 6max
2. he's LAG
3. you have a smallish stack

I think this is a clear push. If you call this you would have to entertain a fold for a flop that didn't have an A, because the only reason you don't push this is you're afraid of AA. But I push here. I'd probably shove here, because it would get ugly if you just raise to like $130 and then an A hits the flop. Whether to just raise or shove is debatable but I'd definitely say your goal is to get as much money in the pot preflop, this is for value, NOT a bluff. You don't want FE. If you run into AA here, well it's just a bad beat.
 
WVHillbilly

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Push. If your stack was deeper it might be different but here you started the hand with ~75bbs and you have 67 left. The pot is ~22bbs and it cost us 7.5bbs to call. If we call now we're pushing any flop not containing an ace anyway, but he might fold a hand we beat after the flop that he will call with now (Ax,QQ,JJ,etc). His range is huge here, not only because he's LAG but also because our raise looks so much like a blind steal. If he has AA, so be it. If he has Ax and hits, those are the breaks. But all things considered I push here every time.
 
zachvac

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I have a reason for posting this and my br was roughly around 1.5k and i bought in for 150$ Just curious about how any of you would of played this. Ex. reraise, flat call, push, fold etc.. How much of a reraise if a A spiked on the flop ...

You should have 8k for playing 400nl, you are playing way over your head, and this hand is a perfect example. Pushing is clearly the right move, but if you push and happen to run into AA and lose you've just lost a fifth of your BR. You don't want this happening.
 
ChuckTs

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This is a great spot to shove and get your money in as a favourite against his range. Shove this all day. I don't think you can ever fold KK against a lag with 75bbs.
 
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PokerStars Game #15975523189: Hold'em No Limit (2$/4$) - 2008/03/18 - 10:51:52 (ET)
Table 'Anius IV' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Donkey71 ($451 in chips)
Seat 2: BigStakes101 ($297 in chips)
Seat 3: PokerERG ($150 in chips)
Seat 4: AllInZiZi ($894 in chips)
Seat 5: xChris007($551 in chips)
Seat 6: Neo_2279 ($118 in chips)
PokerERG: posts small blind $2
AllinZiZi: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BigStakes101 [Ks Kc]
xChris007: folds
Neo_2279: folds
Donkey71: folds
BigStakes101: raises $12 to $18
PokerERG: folds
AllinZiZi: raises $30 to $48
BigStakes raises $80 to $128
AllinZiZi raises $285 to $413
BigStakes101 calls 285$ and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [3c 6c 9c]
*** TURN *** [3c 6c 9c] Q♥
*** RIVER *** [3c 6c 9c Qh] 2♠
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BigStakes101: shows [Ks Kc] (a pair of Kings)
AllinZiZi: shows [3d 2d] (two pair, Threes and Twos)
AllinZiZi collected $689 from pot

Now i guess this is what you get from a "LAG" but i was just wondering if i should of put him on aces or AK and just see flop then maybe i would be able to get away from them.
 
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BigStakes101

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You should have 8k for playing 400nl, you are playing way over your head, and this hand is a perfect example. Pushing is clearly the right move, but if you push and happen to run into AA and lose you've just lost a fifth of your BR. You don't want this happening.

since I bought in for 150 and i had 1.6k when i bought in i am roughly risking 10% of my bankroll which i agree is cheating a bit but where do you get a fifth?
 
blankoblanco

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oh don't worry guys, this is just a bad beat post
 
WVHillbilly

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Hell playing against this idiot I think I'd have said to hell with BRM, reloaded and played longer. 32 (sooted baby!) that's classic! Still think you should have just shoved to his initial reraise but you did get exactly what you wanted just not the outcome you expected.
 
KenFischer

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I think that it's a push or fold situation here.

If he has a big pair, he'll most likely call you anyhow (and that's what you want, unless it's AA, in which case you just have to take your chances).

If he has a trash hand, he might choose to gamble anyhow, but at least you are putting him on the decision, and you have a chance that he'll fold.

By just reraising but not pushing, you let him force you to make a decision for your stack, which is almost never a good thing.

Once that flop hits, I see no way that you will fold your KK or he will get away from bottom pair. The time to get out of the hand (or get him out) is pre-flop.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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stealth bad beat thread alert!

btw you should fold, villain has 32s and will hit two pair on the river.
 
zachvac

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since I bought in for 150 and i had 1.6k when i bought in i am roughly risking 10% of my bankroll which i agree is cheating a bit but where do you get a fifth?

You initially said 1.5k and you had just under $300 at the table:

300/1.5k = 1/5 last I checked.

But BRM is not about how much you buy in for, it's about the MAX buy-in. If you buy-in min you will have bigger swings because you will be pushing with more marginal hands (rightfully so). You should be playing 50nl with that BR and that's why, you just lost 1/5.5 of your BR if you started the session with 150 and the 1.5k went up to 1.65k (300/1650). If you had a big enough BR, you could be fine with these and hope to run into more of these, but all of a sudden now a loss like this cripples your BR.
 
U

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Never

I'd never ever fold KK preflop. Especially online......its harder to get a pure 100% read on someone, so when i see KK, i 99% think i have the best hand even if i am re-raised. I can't fold KK preflop, ever probably. After the flop, sure if an ace pops but preflop............no way.
 
royalburrito24

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I post bad beats threads in the hand analysis section all the time. Mainly because if I pick up a bad beat, I begin to doubt my play. Most of the time I either do not post all of the results or I make up bogus results so I will not get ridiculed like the OP. But yea, most of my HA threads are bad beats, whether you know it or not.
 
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switch0723

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Dr. Flop, U make like totally str8 on right, of what u said. that is amazin informaton, and sumthing for me 2 think about, or play wisly about!

COOL

Couldnt have said it better myself
 
royalburrito24

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Sorry, but I absolutely hate this play. What kind of range are we looking at? If opponent has Ax (probably AK at this point), we want his money in the middle before he can get away from a missed flop. If he has AA, with your example we're paying him off with our stack every flop he doesn't set. So we still pay off the one hand that beats us while taking away value from the hands that we beat (crush I may add). Also, you have a little under 75 bbs. I think there's an error in the HH since you are open raising $12 but it gets to $28. When you add the points that:

1. it's 6max
2. he's LAG
3. you have a smallish stack

I think this is a clear push. If you call this you would have to entertain a fold for a flop that didn't have an A, because the only reason you don't push this is you're afraid of AA. But I push here. I'd probably shove here, because it would get ugly if you just raise to like $130 and then an A hits the flop. Whether to just raise or shove is debatable but I'd definitely say your goal is to get as much money in the pot preflop, this is for value, NOT a bluff. You don't want FE. If you run into AA here, well it's just a bad beat.

I am going to have to agree with zach on this one, rather than the flopologist.
 
A

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i would never fold with KK pre-flop...especially against a loose aggressive player
 
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