Flopping a Monster

tosborn

tosborn

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Not much of a read on villain. I think he has been on the table for around 2 orbits. I haven't noticed anything on the two hands that he won. His betting was standard and he didn't show either of them down.


pokerstars Game #10075367401: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/05/23 - 23:30:14 (ET)
Table 'Ilos V' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: intrepid007 ($31.05 in chips)
Seat 3: robinr ($4.05 in chips)
Seat 4: coop488 ($23.70 in chips)
Seat 5: TOzzman ($34.45 in chips)
Seat 6: Buckby ($13.45 in chips)
Seat 7: ZekeYeehaw ($28.20 in chips)
Seat 8: mjoo82 ($39.50 in chips)
Buckby: posts small blind $0.10
ZekeYeehaw: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TOzzman [Kc Qs]
mjoo82: folds
intrepid007: folds
robinr has timed out
robinr: folds
robinr is sitting out
coop488: folds
robinr has returned
TOzzman: raises $0.50 to $0.75
Buckby: folds
ZekeYeehaw: calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [Qd Kd Kh]
ZekeYeehaw: bets $1
TOzzman: ?
 
edge-t

edge-t

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Raise him, there's no point in slow-playing, I feel. Most people PFR with AK, AQ... He's gonna be putting you on one of this hand. I'd prefer to start building the pot now.

If he's holding AK, AA, QQ or KT, gl to him when he shoves your raise.
 
tosborn

tosborn

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Fairly standard ABC poker. Like I said, he's only been around a couple of orbits and I haven't made any real plays at a pot. I think I may have taken the blinds a couple of times.
 
shinedown.45

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Call villians bet as to make it look your chasing the straight/flush and hope it hits, your way ahead here and villians bet looks as if hes trying to push you off a draw, let him think your on a draw until the river then bet the pot.
 
MrDaMan

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Dudes got A/Q and a Q on the turn and a Q on the river ... fold now it's over! :D

No really at this point I re-raise the size of the pot and see what he does. If he goes all-in you have to call, if he just calls I'd check if an ace fell, then wonder if he's slowplaying A/A, I'd pot size the bet with any other card that fell.

I think I either win or go broke on this hand.
 
skoldpadda

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Watch out for that royal flush draw.

Raise him and see how he likes them apples.
 
tosborn

tosborn

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The only hands that I was worried about were AK, AJd, & ATd. I'm pretty sure that AA would have reraised preflop. I decided to smooth call and see what villain would do.

Dealt to TOzzman [Kc Qs]
TOzzman: raises $0.50 to $0.75
Buckby: folds
ZekeYeehaw: calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [Qd Kd Kh]
ZekeYeehaw: bets $1
TOzzman: calls $1
*** TURN *** [Qd Kd Kh] [4h]
ZekeYeehaw: bets $2.25
TOzzman: ?
 
Last edited:
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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with the size of the bet here, I would say call again, he still thinks your on a flush draw and pot bet on the river, but if an ace shows in the river, and he checks, check back because he has you and is trying to get you to bet just to raise you, I think villian has A-K.
 
tosborn

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I've got to get some sleep. So I'll go ahead and post the entire hand.

PokerStars Game #10075367401: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/05/23 - 23:30:14 (ET)
Table 'Ilos V' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: intrepid007 ($31.05 in chips)
Seat 3: robinr ($4.05 in chips)
Seat 4: coop488 ($23.70 in chips)
Seat 5: TOzzman ($34.45 in chips)
Seat 6: Buckby ($13.45 in chips)
Seat 7: ZekeYeehaw ($28.20 in chips)
Seat 8: mjoo82 ($39.50 in chips)
Buckby: posts small blind $0.10
ZekeYeehaw: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TOzzman [Kc Qs]
mjoo82: folds
intrepid007: folds
robinr has timed out
robinr: folds
robinr is sitting out
coop488: folds
robinr has returned
TOzzman: raises $0.50 to $0.75
Buckby: folds
ZekeYeehaw: calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [Qd Kd Kh]
ZekeYeehaw: bets $1
TOzzman: calls $1
*** TURN *** [Qd Kd Kh] [4h]
ZekeYeehaw: bets $2.25
TOzzman: calls $2.25
*** RIVER *** [Qd Kd Kh 4h] [7h]
ZekeYeehaw: checks
TOzzman: bets $5
ZekeYeehaw: folds
TOzzman collected $7.75 from pot
TOzzman: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $8.10 | Rake $0.35
Board [Qd Kd Kh 4h 7h]
Seat 1: intrepid007 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: robinr folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: coop488 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: TOzzman (button) collected ($7.75)
Seat 6: Buckby (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: ZekeYeehaw (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 8: mjoo82 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Could I have gotten more value from this hand?
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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I've got to get some sleep. So I'll go ahead and post the entire hand.

PokerStars Game #10075367401: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/05/23 - 23:30:14 (ET)
Table 'Ilos V' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: intrepid007 ($31.05 in chips)
Seat 3: robinr ($4.05 in chips)
Seat 4: coop488 ($23.70 in chips)
Seat 5: TOzzman ($34.45 in chips)
Seat 6: Buckby ($13.45 in chips)
Seat 7: ZekeYeehaw ($28.20 in chips)
Seat 8: mjoo82 ($39.50 in chips)
Buckby: posts small blind $0.10
ZekeYeehaw: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TOzzman [Kc Qs]
mjoo82: folds
intrepid007: folds
robinr has timed out
robinr: folds
robinr is sitting out
coop488: folds
robinr has returned
TOzzman: raises $0.50 to $0.75
Buckby: folds
ZekeYeehaw: calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [Qd Kd Kh]
ZekeYeehaw: bets $1
TOzzman: calls $1
*** TURN *** [Qd Kd Kh] 4♥
ZekeYeehaw: bets $2.25
TOzzman: calls $2.25
*** RIVER *** [Qd Kd Kh 4h] 7♥
ZekeYeehaw: checks
TOzzman: bets $5
ZekeYeehaw: folds
TOzzman collected $7.75 from pot
TOzzman: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $8.10 | Rake $0.35
Board [Qd Kd Kh 4h 7h]
Seat 1: intrepid007 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: robinr folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: coop488 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: TOzzman (button) collected ($7.75)
Seat 6: Buckby (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: ZekeYeehaw (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 8: mjoo82 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Could I have gotten more value from this hand?
IMO, I don't think so, he was on a flushdraw himself or had A-K and had the disipline to lay it down in face of a possible flush, but a flush is more likely here for villian to be hoping for, he seems to be the type to pot build in hopes of hitting the flush and almost any raise might have chased him out early.
In hindsight and totally results oriented, a raise on the turn may have gotten you a little more:)
 
edge-t

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I still think you should have raised the flop or turn. The third heart killed all the action for you by the river.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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That's why you should raise that flop.
 
NineLions

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I think only if you knew something about him or he knew something about you.

If you had an aggressive table image you could have led out at various points and he would have called or raised. If you knew he was a calling station or someone likely to overvalue a holding you could have led out as well, or maybe min raised.

But without reads on one side or the other, I don't know. A good player is supposed to be wary of check-calls as they may indicate a monster from a good player so then leading out can be more profitable, according to Phil Gordon, but again that depends on how Zeke thinks.
 
rob5775

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Being that it was unlikely you were drawing to the heart flush (only one heart on the flop), and with his check on the river, what about a small bet on the river... about 1.50 or 2.00. A weaker player will think its a steal and possibly raise or call, and a savvy player might consider it a post oak bluff and raise or call you. If you don't believe he will call a bigger bet, I think this might be your best option to extract the most chips.

Just a thought.
 
tosborn

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As you can see I've been trying to examine a couple of plays that might have netted a little more if played differently. I'm not sure that any difference in betting would have gotten villain to put any more money into the middle.

What if we used some meta-game tactics here?

See the notes below and tell me if you think this would have made any difference.

PokerStars Game #10075367401: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/05/23 - 23:30:14 (ET)
Table 'Ilos V' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: intrepid007 ($31.05 in chips)
Seat 3: robinr ($4.05 in chips)
Seat 4: coop488 ($23.70 in chips)
Seat 5: TOzzman ($34.45 in chips)
Seat 6: Buckby ($13.45 in chips)
Seat 7: ZekeYeehaw ($28.20 in chips)
Seat 8: mjoo82 ($39.50 in chips)
Buckby: posts small blind $0.10
ZekeYeehaw: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TOzzman [Kc Qs]
mjoo82: folds
intrepid007: folds
robinr has timed out
robinr: folds
robinr is sitting out
coop488: folds
robinr has returned
TOzzman: raises $0.50 to $0.75
Buckby: folds
ZekeYeehaw: calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [Qd Kd Kh]
ZekeYeehaw: bets $1
(TOzzman makes a long pause before calling)
TOzzman: calls $1
*** TURN *** [Qd Kd Kh] 4♥
ZekeYeehaw: bets $2.25
TOzzman says "KQ?"
TOzzman says "AK?"
TOzzman: calls $2.25
*** RIVER *** [Qd Kd Kh 4h] 7♥
ZekeYeehaw: checks
TOzzman: bets $5
ZekeYeehaw: folds
TOzzman collected $7.75 from pot
TOzzman: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $8.10 | Rake $0.35
Board [Qd Kd Kh 4h 7h]
Seat 1: intrepid007 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: robinr folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: coop488 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: TOzzman (button) collected ($7.75)
Seat 6: Buckby (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: ZekeYeehaw (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 8: mjoo82 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Should I be using tactics such as this online? I know that if this was a live game, I would have definately said something along those lines.

Can we use our chatbox to effectively increase villains calling ranges?

I've read through Joosebuck's "T-Rex" session and although I probably won't be going to such extremes. I found that even the simple comment "Do Not Limp, I will eat you" was a great way to make the table much more willing to put money into the pot.

Anyway, I've been rambling so here is the actual question that I've been trying to get to.

Even though a solid player will recognize that any attempt to show weakness through chat is probably a sign that you want a call and have a real hand, are there enough inexperienced players to use this tactic profitably?
 
B

bocasas

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if i were you i would have raised in the turn. that way you might have taken some more money, but I'm not sure. It's to hard to play when you have a monster and your opponent has nothing. so what you did was right you gave him the opportunity to bluff.
 
tosborn

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if i were you i would have raised in the turn. that way you might have taken some more money, but I'm not sure. It's to hard to play when you have a monster and your opponent has nothing. so what you did was right you gave him the opportunity to bluff.

Actually I didn't want him to bluff. I was hoping that he thought he had the best hand. Because I knew nothing about him, he also knew nothing about me. There are a lot of Kings and Queens that were in his range.
 
ChuckTs

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The problem with a tight-aggressive style is that the majority of the time, your hand is so obvious that it's hard to get a desired action out of someone. By calling both the flop + turn, you're pretty much telegraphing your slowplay, though occasionally this could be a draw. Even if you raise the flop you're showing great strength.

I'm not sure how to get the most value out of this, but slowplaying to the river is rarely good. I like a flop raise; a combo draw might push you, and another king will stack you. He might not believe you have the goods either if you come out raising. Generally people slowplay (see above :rolleyes:), and so by raising he might not believe you.
 
Bombjack

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Just calling here on this board to a donk bet is terrible. I raise this flop all day long while your opponent thinks he has equity in his draw. You're trying to get his whole stack and you're not going to do that by keeping the pot small.
 
A

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min raise the turn. Even if he has nothing hed be too embarrassed to fold.
 
J

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I raise this flop all day long while your opponent thinks he has equity in his draw. You're trying to get his whole stack and you're not going to do that by keeping the pot small.


I agree with this. There are too many ways with this board that he could be on a draw. At most you can call the flop if you want but you absolutely need to raise the turn, leaving good equity if he actually is on a draw (good chance of that). Getting his whole stack is very hard (probably impossible) if he doesn't make his draw or he doesn't have a K, but you need to maximize what you can get before the river and make this pot big at the same time, or else even if he does catch you won't be able to get his stack. If you raise his turn bet to $6, pot will now be around $16 (he'll have around $20 left) and you're in position to get the rest of his stack or most of it if a diamond hits, assuming he'll bet out on the river, otherwise it might not be easy.

Anyway tosborn, I really don't particularly blame you for using this approach, because it has happened to me too and the fear is always to see opponent fold if you show strength and you kind of get caught up in that, so I really do understand. I think the most important thing to do in these cases is look carefully at the board and assess what is the most likely reason your opponent is betting into you. On a draw heavy board smooth calling till the river is tempting in the hopes he catches it, but it has the great defect of making you lose value if he misses. That's why I like what BJ says about raising and letting him think he has equity in his draw, you accomplish getting the most out of it if he misses and making the pot big enough to get his whole stack if he hits it. As suggested above, depending on player, he might even push back if he has a big combo draw.
 
Egon Towst

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Calling the flop bet is clearly incorrect, IMO.

When you flop the nuts (or close to it) and the texture of the flop is such that you are favourite to be still ahead by the river, your aim is to get all of your chips in, in such a way that villain will call.

As a general principle, in these situations, mentally split your remaining stack into three parts. Aim to bet one third on the turn, somewhat less on the flop, and the balance on the river. In this case, approximately $6, $10, $14.

With any luck, villain will feel able to call each increasing bet, and will feel increasingly pot-committed. If you do not bet the flop, you will not be able to get them all-in later without making a very large bet on turn or river, which may scare him out of the hand.

Of course, you may need to throttle back if a scare card falls on turn or river.
 
alexanderwoo1

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I would have raised on the flop because if he has a draw or AK, AQ than you should have made him pay for it by raising it.
 
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