Flopping a low flush. Problems on the turn.

Blazing_Saddler

Blazing_Saddler

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Total posts
214
Chips
0
Not got the HH to hand, but can post at a later date. It isn't that important as it is a common situation that can be generalised a little.

$50 NL Cash game

78 of clubs in the Big Blind. One Limper who plays lots of pots calls in early position. Player in middle position min raises. I call with my 78 suited, fairly confident that the early limper wont re raise, but just call, as he has done it almost every hand.

Not to sure about the min raise guy, no real reads on him, but am thinking really Premium pair is a high possibility.

Flop comes down, with all low cards below ten all clubs. I flopped the flush. Pot stands at about $3.75. I bet the full pot to protect against a higher club.

Early limper folds, which is actually a surprise ! The min raiser calls. Next card is a King of clubs. Four clubs on the board now. 3 in my hand.

My dilema now. Do I bet to see where I am, or is there any point, as if he has the Ace of Clubs then He will surely just call, giving me no information really other than I am beat, but he may possibly check if he has the club
making a call on the river possibly cheaper, or at least letting me see how expensive it will be to see if my flush is good.

Or is it a case of just giving up the hand. My thoughts were, he either had The Premium pair I thought, and wasn't letting go no matter what, he had the premium pair, with the Club, and I was doomed. Or he had a set, it isn't un common to see players min raise pre flop with low pairs, even with a limper or two.

Was really confused to be honest what actually was the best play.

Thoughts ?
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Total posts
2,417
Chips
0
Blazing_Saddler said:
Not got the HH to hand, but can post at a later date. It isn't that important as it is a common situation that can be generalised a little.

$50 NL Cash game

78 of clubs in the Big Blind. One Limper who plays lots of pots calls in early position. Player in middle position min raises. I call with my 78 suited, fairly confident that the early limper wont re raise, but just call, as he has done it almost every hand.

Not to sure about the min raise guy, no real reads on him, but am thinking really Premium pair is a high possibility. Do not automatically assume that a min raise means he has a big pair, thought it is still a possibility. He could be doing this with a low pocket pair because maybe if he does hit a set there will be more in the pot for him to take down if he cant get anyone to pay him off.

Flop comes down, with all low cards below ten all clubs. I flopped the flush. Pot stands at about $3.75. I bet the full pot to protect against a higher club. Why bet so much? You should be value betting here because more times than not a nother club isnt going to roll off, mainly because there are 6 left (presuming he holds a higher club than yours). Value betting would be a much better choice mainly because of that AND you have now created a huge pot with a low flush. If another club rolls off then you are almost committed to the pot because of the huge pot bet.

Early limper folds, which is actually a surprise ! The min raiser calls. Next card is a King of clubs. Four clubs on the board now. 3 in my hand.

My dilema now. Do I bet to see where I am, or is there any point, as if he has the Ace of Clubs then He will surely just call, giving me no information really other than I am beat, but he may possibly check if he has the club
making a call on the river possibly cheaper, or at least letting me see how expensive it will be to see if my flush is good. Here is where you need to proceed with caution, check calling could be an option and would let you lose the minimal if you are behind and let you win a decent sized pot if you are ahead. if he does have the set he is likely to check behind you and hope for the board to pair off, in fear that you may have a club. he will most likely bet if he has the high club, but im sure he would not want to lose a customer. in this situation, I would check-fold the hand and if he checks behind you on the turn, then maybe check-call the river. No sense value betting if you are not sure of your opponents hand

Or is it a case of just giving up the hand. My thoughts were, he either had The Premium pair I thought, and wasn't letting go no matter what, he had the premium pair, with the Club, and I was doomed. Or he had a set, it isn't un common to see players min raise pre flop with low pairs, even with a limper or two. in this situation, I would check-fold the hand and if he checks behind you on the turn, then maybe check-call the river. No sense value betting if you are not sure of your opponents hand

Was really confused to be honest what actually was the best play.

Thoughts ?
Click to expand...

so what did you end up doing?

also, does anyone think i am steering him wrong?
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Total posts
2,417
Chips
0
vanquish said:
wait for other responses before asking for result

@ OP: c/f turn/river, WA/WB applies imo
Click to expand...

sorry just got a little ahead of myself i guess


this sort of thing happens all the time and i wanted to give my 2 cents and recieve results instantly
 
Blazing_Saddler

Blazing_Saddler

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Total posts
214
Chips
0
The result isn't really that important. As it is a situation you come across over time if you play suited connectors often, which I do in the right situations. Although I much prefer the straight possibilities.

The pot bet on the flop. I see your point and agree. My reasoning is, well I bet my hands hard most the time, even monsters, because at the $50 level, you get action. For some reason the players give no respect to betting out at the flop, but do to a check raise. You are probably right in this situation it would have been better to make a smaller bet.

End of the day, that is why I post hands to hear your thoughts, I take them all in, and analyse my play later
 
J

jeffred1111

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Total posts
792
Chips
0
Since this is on the turn and that if opponent has a higher club, we will be paying two streets of value (OOP we cannot check behind), I might be tempted to c/fold on the turn, but I prefer bet/fold, since a very wide range, including sets and the like, could (incorrectly) only flat call this monochrome flop: opponent who minraises can very well be playing set/two pairs, etc. this way. But I bet small, 2/3 the pot. If I get called, I'm c/folding river a huge % of the time/ if I'm getting raised, I'm behind a lot, and no set/two pairs are going to raise this turn.
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Total posts
23,189
Awards
9
Chips
0
I think you have to make the effort here to convince villain that you have something damn close to the nut flush, not just any flush.

Depending on stack sizes, this could be pot sized, but 3/4 feels about right. This is sort of a gamble, but look at it that your looking at almost half the clubs in the deck, so his chances of having any are diminished.

Go with your gut feeling that he had a big pair, and no club.

For sure if you wimp out here, he will not!
 
Blazing_Saddler

Blazing_Saddler

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Total posts
214
Chips
0
My gut feeling when he called the Bet on the flop was that he had a Spade in his hand. If I was in his position I would re raise if I had AA, and the Ace of clubs in my hand on the flop.

I have been thinking long and hard about this all night long, and I think I should have, made the bet on the flop, maybe a bit smaller, but I think betting is correct play.

On the turn I think I should have checked, although it shows weakness, if he has a club, more times than not he isn't going to bet. If he doesn't have the Club, he still may check, hoping to show down his hand. If he bets, then that is another decision I would have to think about, but I could have got away from it i guess on the turn, without to much money in the pot.

This sounds a weak play, but I hate these situations when betting doesn't really buy you a great deal of information.

He actually had A10 with the Ace of clubs. I Played it all wrong in the end. I made a bet of half the pot on the turn, which he called. I checked the river, he made a tiny bet, giving me massive odds to call, so I had to call.

Lost a fair sized pot, but his small bet on the river probably saved me a few dollars.
 
J

jeffred1111

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Total posts
792
Chips
0
My gut feeling when he called the Bet on the flop was that he had a Spade in his hand. If I was in his position I would re raise if I had AA, and the Ace of clubs in my hand on the flop.

I have been thinking long and hard about this all night long, and I think I should have, made the bet on the flop, maybe a bit smaller, but I think betting is correct play.

On the turn I think I should have checked, although it shows weakness, if he has a club, more times than not he isn't going to bet. If he doesn't have the Club, he still may check, hoping to show down his hand. If he bets, then that is another decision I would have to think about, but I could have got away from it i guess on the turn, without to much money in the pot.

This sounds a weak play, but I hate these situations when betting doesn't really buy you a great deal of information.

He actually had A10 with the Ace of clubs. I Played it all wrong in the end. I made a bet of half the pot on the turn, which he called. I checked the river, he made a tiny bet, giving me massive odds to call, so I had to call.

Lost a fair sized pot, but his small bet on the river probably saved me a few dollars.
Click to expand...

On the turn, betting is correct IMHO since we can induce an unwanted bluff from two pairs/sets/air if we check and that puts in at a tough decision. We have to remember that many hands in villain's range call on this flop, and sometimes villain might even try to float the nuts (this is read dependant though). Bet/folding might seem spewy here, but it really isn't since you're actually saving money by shutting down after getting called/raised, because if we look at it from villain's point of you, a check might say:
a) I have the nuts and I'm looking for you to bet
b) I'm afraid of these clubs
c) I'm afraid but still might have the best hand (low clubs)
And his bet can thus mean anything: villain is betting a lot broader than he is calling/raising here.

Also, how much were you getting on your money at the river ? If it was real good, like 8:1, maybe villain has lower flush, straight, two pairs, set, air enough of the time for the call to be +EV or neutral EV. Sure we don't beat a lot, but with great pot odds, we don't need to in the long run: I've seen guys show the 3 or 4 of the suit on a four board flush. I'd need great odds to look him up though and it looks like villain made a great value bet since it was so tempting.
 
Full Flush Poker
Top