flop trips messy board

mellyy85

mellyy85

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this is a 1/2 nl cash game

me:$150 bucks

unknown: 250

Drawgirl: 175 (who bets every draw or any pair)

i hold 77 on the button and i rasie it up to 17 to go and eveyone folds excpet the BB (draw girl) and unknown who is my left calls.

flop comes 10d 7d 8c the pot is now 52 dollars and everyone checks to me do i bet and if so how much or do i check?
 
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IVEverLow

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This flop is filled with draws, you definitely cannot check here. I bet the pot and if she calls and the turn card completes any draws I'd slow down, if it's a blank then you need to throw another bet out there. Are there betting patterns you've picked up from her? Does she bet draws the same as any pair? If so, this could turn into a sticky situation on the turn. Try to take it down now if possible. *At least this is my thought.*
 
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joeeagles

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Checking is not an option with that board.

You have to bet enough to make any draw call with incorrect odds, that's all you have to do. This is not a bad situation to be in, keep in mind you also have a 33% chance to make a full house or better from flop to river. Being that the pot is $52, you'd have to bet at least around $35/$40, and actually hope to get a caller. The only problem is that someone might have a double draw, but you can't be excessively worried about it because it's just about impossible to deny correct odds to a hand like that on the flop (ex. Ad9d).

If the turn is a brick, the same thought process applies, make draws call incorrectly, although if they both call your flop bet (which I doubt but you never know) the scenario gets a bit more complicated, because you have ~$90 left if you bet $40 and pot is $172, which brings another question: why did you raise 8.5 BB with 77 PF, also considering you're the button?
 
pokernut

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What they said above. You definately can not check that flop with all of the draws out there. I would be about 3/4's the pot (~$40) which would give any draws incorrect odds to chase. They'd be at about 2.2 to 1 I believe, not enough to chase their flush or straight.
 
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jeffred1111

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You raised too much preflop and are now looking at a hge pot that is likely to get you in trouble. A good sized raise (3bb + 1 for every caller) would've been enough. As it stands, you're likely not to have enough money for a third bullet by the river. Plus, such a huge bets announces a high pocket pair, someone with 2 pairs might stay in and outdraw you to the boat thinking he has you beat...

With that in mind, you cannot let this pot go away from you: it's juicy and you have a hand that is well disguised: bet just enough to get the draws out of there (3/4 as was suggested) and maybe get one of them to fold (thus making it even more incorrect for boat/straight draws to chase). Taking this pot down right now is the ideal scenario. If you get check/raised (or check/shoved as it stands), you're either in front or somebody has already flopped the straight and at best you're a 33% favorite to complete your boat (I'd fold to this as I wouldn't have the proper odds)

If the turn pairs the board, you're probably golden or you have already lost (and will get felted), nothing to be ashamed of here; if the 9 comes, well it was nice but you gotta let it go (check/fold). Another move would be to shove right there and get our money in while we're in front, but I really don't think that the added fold equity works out in the long run since if the SB call, the BB is likely to call (since he'll get somewhat good odds to draw).

Tricky hand that warrants agression right on the flop.
 
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IVEverLow

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If you get check/raised (or check/shoved as it stands), you're either in front or somebody has already flopped the straight and at best you're a 33% favorite to complete your boat (I'd fold to this as I wouldn't have the proper odds)

Really? You'd fold this? The only hands beating you right now are 1010 88 and 96. I highly doubt villain is holding any of these and even if they were I don't know that folding here is the right move. If anything I would be hoping for a shove from them if I don't shove before they get the chance.
 
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jeffred1111

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From a solid opponent (someone who maybe has the 1010), yes, I'd fold to a check/raise and this is why I advocated shoving right there if we believe someone might try to do this to us (the pot is already big enough for us to warrant such a play and the hands that call 17bb pre-flop will likely think you also have an overpair).

But I don't think villain is very likely to C/R us, unless they have the goods or have completly nothing and are trying a play on us. This situation is largely read dependant, and if I had just sat at the table, yes, I'd probably fold: from a known LAG, I shove before they even have the chance to C/R. Might as well have villain call the all-in than beat us to it (pot is 52, if we bet 35 into it, we're looking at a 80-90 raise minimum wich makes us pot comitted.)

I have reread my comment and it is a bit weak/tight... After all this is a cash game.
 
arkadiy

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Shove, take down the pot and go to the next hand.

Now if someone is on a draw and you get unlucky, well hey this is poker (which I've had to realize recently) and luck is involved.

If no one calls, free money is free money!
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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As it has been all said above, push here, I believe you may be up against AK, A10 or QJ and a shove forces opponents to make a huge mistake by calling.
On a draw heavy board you want your opponents to make mistakes by calling your bets and hope they dont hit.
 
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joeeagles

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Shove, take down the pot and go to the next hand.

Now if someone is on a draw and you get unlucky, well hey this is poker (which I've had to realize recently) and luck is involved.

If no one calls, free money is free money!



Sorry to disagree with you, but I don't understand this. You have a calling station on this table who chases all his draws and you want to get him off the hook when you hit a set? What free money are you talking about? You're AHEAD in this hand, it's very unlikely someone calls a $17 raise with J9, and if someone has a bigger set you'll lose your stack anyway because you can't fold this flop. But you should definitely try to get value for this hand with a calling station in the pot, not shove to force a fold. Bet enough to make draws call incorrectly. That's how you make money in cash games, when your opponents make mistakes. Walking away from this hand with the $52 in the pot right now is not good, its not "free money" by any means. Even if board is dangerous you still need to induce mistakes, but if you shove and they fold you ended up making the biggest one.

I know people many times suckout in these situations but you can't play it scared every single time because it'll lose you money in the long term. When you hit a strong hand your goal is to find a way to get paid off, and in this case remember you can still make a hand that is stronger than any draw out there, actually that will happen 1 every 3 times in this scenario.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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Bet enough to make draws call incorrectly. That's how you make money in cash games, when your opponents make mistakes. Walking away from this hand with the $52 in the pot right now is not good, its not "free money" by any means. Even if board is dangerous you still need to induce mistakes, but if you shove and they fold you ended up making the biggest one.
Yep, what he said. It's not the amount of hands you win in no limit cash games that makes you a success, it's how much you win from each hand. Stick your neck out a bit for the extra dollars available.
 
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