Extracting Value after flopping the world?

full tilt poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $24.90
UTG+1: $24.65
Hero (UTG+2): $25.25 (20/10/3 at this table thus far)
MP1: $5.50
MP2: $24.90 (33/11/1 - 62 hands)
CO: $6.75 (16/10/3 - 100 hands)
BTN: $10.75
SB: $19.40 (73/27/1 - 15 hands)
BB: $24.05

Pre-Flop: 2c 2h dealt to Hero (UTG+2)
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, MP1 folds, MP2 raises to $1.25, CO calls $1.25, BTN folds, SB calls $1.15, 2 folds, Hero calls $1

Flop: ($5.50) 2s Kd 2d (4 Players)
SB checks, Hero ???


Do we donk into the preflop raiser and hope for a reraise or check-call and slow-play to the river?

Check call on the flop and turn. Then, raise any bet or bet on the river.

You need to milk your opponent with bet bet bet. Bet small on each street around 1/2 -> 1/3 pot size so as to try and ge thim to call down light.

I agree that you need to bet, bet, bet. Getting FPS here will just mess up the rest of your game. Think about your image if you bet this all the way to showdown and if you were to check/call or check/raise along the way. Which one is better for your image in the long run? Betting into this is going to make you're Cbets & trips pay off much more in the long run.

There's a flush draw and a king out there. You're in a 4 way pot. BET. You want to play this in a huge pot & you want to be raised, and there is likely a king out there to give you action. You've flopped the immortal nuts, and we want to get our stack in! The CO player is also pretty aggressive, so if he has a king, a raise is a possibility. Also, we need to keep our bets the same size, just for consistancy's sake. So we're not betting less than half the pot here.

Maybe if everyone in the pot had a small stack, then we could advocate a check/call line. But we're not going to felt the small blind or MP2 by check/calling.

/me bets at least $2.50

Figure I should post the results:

Hero bets $3
Everyone folds!

I couldn't believe that with 2 diamonds and a K on board I couldn't get action from anyone but it happened.

Yea gotta bet it, $3 is a little excessive, you want some action from a king, and you want the flush draw to draw correctly. I think I lead for $2.

Tim, why are you check-calling, how do you expect to get your stack in the middle ? Shove the river ?

Maybe $3 was too much but it's only slightly more than 1/2 the pot and it's probably what I would bet if I had a good K or even the nut flush draw.

t1riel said:

Check call on the flop and turn. Then, raise any bet or bet on the river.

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Very sneaky. Baluuuuuuggggaaaaaa

You played it fine WV. Looks standard to me.

There are some times where you can extract more by slowplaying and there are times where you can extract more by fastplaying and in this hand you should have slowplayed. Check call on flop, do same on turn. Then on the river make a large bet since you're opponent will probably call if he has a king.

Bentheman87 said:

Then on the river make a large bet since you're opponent will probably call if he has a king.

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If he has a K wouldn't he be more likely to call on the flop, before a scare card (say another diamond) hit the board? Honestly I think this is a case where I would have been very lucky to make even a small amount more from this hand.

Simular situation with quads here. I figure if someone has a Q the would call my weak flop bet. Then value town them.

poker stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
SB: 20.40 BB
Hero (BB): 97.20 BB
UTG: 55.60 BB
UTG+1: 50.80 BB
MP1: 122.40 BB
MP2: 94.60 BB
CO: 100 BB
BTN: 48 BB
Pre-Flop: 4c 4d dealt to Hero (BB)
3 folds, MP2 calls 1BB, CO raises to 5BB, 2 folds, Hero calls 4BB, MP2 calls 4BB
Flop: (15.4BB) Qc 4s 4h (3 Players)
Hero bets 6BB, MP2 calls 6BB, CO folds
Turn: (27.4BB) 3c (2 Players)
Hero bets 14BB, MP2 calls 14BB
River: (55.4BB) 2c (2 Players)
Hero bets 30BB, MP2 calls 30BB
Results: 115.4BB Pot (5.6BB Rake)
Hero showed 4c 4d (four of a kind, Fours) and WON 109.8BB (+54.8BB NET)
MP2 mucked Qh 8h and LOST (-55BB NET)

Very nice, but if he didn't have a Q your likely result would have been the same as mine.

I think it depends on the image of the players left in the pot.

Think of it this way...if you flop quads, everybody missed at least 2 of the cards. If a person is on a flush draw, you lucked out, but if you bet the flop there is a decent chance that everybody completely missed and will fold. With a set you have a lot more chance of getting action, but with quads it is alot less likely. I personally tend to check the flop, hope somebody bets so i can flat call, and then bet the turn if it is checked around to me, because at least there are now 2 cards out there that somebody might have hit. That is unless i am playing vs a super aggressive player, in which i will probably check-call to the river, or make a "feeler" bet on the turn in the hopes of getting reraised. The advantage with quad 3s or something is that it is nigh impossible for somebody to believe that the 3s actually helped your opponent.

However, just as bad as having everybody fold on the flop, is winning a small pot because it was checked to the river then all you got out of it was a value bet. So it depends alot on the situation. I personally just think it is a little too risky betting the flop hoping that somebody connected with the only card out there or is on a flush draw.

I would prefer to see a check/call on that flop, then lead out on the turn. None will put you on a 2, so even in a slow play, people probably wont put you on a 2. A check/call would induce a c bet from the original raiser, if anyone has a queen they will then pay us off on the turn, if noone has a queen, we can extract value from them here by allowing them to bluff.

By check/calling we can also represent a flush draw on the turn and may entice a re raise from the raiser. I just believe we are just as likely to get our stack in the middle against a queen on the turn, but we can also extract chips from hands that have missed the flop by allowing the bluff.

WVHillbilly said:

Very nice, but if he didn't have a Q your likely result would have been the same as mine.

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Agreed. its more a case of if villian has a hand worth calling with as to wether or not you get paid. But if you give odds for people to draw its more likely to result in a bigger pot for you or if you make it look like a weak bluff.

tenbob said:

Yea gotta bet it, $3 is a little excessive, you want some action from a king, and you want the flush draw to draw correctly. I think I lead for $2.

Tim, why are you check-calling, how do you expect to get your stack in the middle ? Shove the river ?

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A great possibility any bet could get the players to fold. No hand could beat you, why not slowplay? MP2 will probably make a c-bet here. If so, you could consider a raise (or shove).

The problem with slow playing is that you don't inflate the pot enough to make your bets on the turn and river get the opponents stack in. You want to give the opponent the odds to chase or bluff at you. Now if you have a specific read on your opponent and you think there is a >75% chance that the opponent will make a donk push if you slow play then by all means slow play.

Jillychemung said:

The problem with slow playing is that you don't inflate the pot enough to make your bets on the turn and river get the opponents stack in.

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We dont want their stack in, we want maximum value. If we try to get them AI using pot bets and bigger sized bets we risk loosing the smaller value bets we would otherwise have made by giving them odds or betting smaller 1/2 pot sized bets.

"We dont want their stack in, we want maximum value. If we try to get them AI using pot bets and bigger sized bets we risk loosing the smaller value bets we would otherwise have made by giving them odds or betting smaller 1/2 pot sized bets."

Agreed, it's highly unlikely we can stack here so we just want to get maximum value. Players who bet on the flop in these spots are thinking they want to "build the pot" so its big enough to stack their opponent on the river. Of course this would be great but that's assuming someone here has AK or KK. You should check the flop and turn for two reasons. First all you're opponents are drawing dead so you can afford free cards. Second, free cards might give you're opponents strong second best hands. Someone might have AQ and turn could come an Ace, someone might have 77 and turn could come a 7, or maybe no one has anything at all now, but turn might come a Jack and give QJ a decent second best hand where you might win a small bet on the river.