€25 NLHE 6-max: OESD in 3bet pot, line check

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 22/19/3

So I'm wondering what do you guys think about this line? I'm not doing well in 3-bet light pots so I wanted to try different things.

143 hands on villain, 50% fold to 3bets (3/6) but he folded 3/3 to flop cbets (in normal raised pots tho I assume)

The regs usually call 3bets with a range of 77-JJ and AQ+, sometimes AJ or even ATs in position from my experience, correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know if cbetting is correct given my perceived range of him, I'm beginning to think it isn't since I lose money in my 3bet light pots when I cbet.

Anyway, on the flop I can assume he continues with 55-JJ mostly. So I see the A as a good opportunity to insta-shove. Opinions ?

Hero (SB): €29.88
BB: €23.60
UTG: €20.20
MP: €20.00
CO: €41.07
BTN: €22.81

Hero posts SB €0.10, BB posts BB €0.20

Pre Flop: (€0.30) Hero has 7:heart: 8:heart:

fold, MP raises to €0.70, fold, fold, Hero raises to €2.40, fold, MP calls €1.70

Flop: (€5.00, 2 players) 6:diamond: 5:club: T:diamond:
Hero bets €3.00, MP calls €3.00

Turn: (€11.00, 2 players) A:spade:
Hero bets €24.48 and is all-in

turn shove seems kind of spewy to me

It's a pretty standard barreling card; he's flatting all those underpairs and in general his range is weak (JJ+ often raises flop given how wet the board is), and obviously doesn't have an ace often, so betting's fine. We don't really need to make it this big though. He does have an ace some of the time, doesn't always shove when you barrel smaller (like $7), and probably folds well often enough with those underpairs to still have fold equity, so just cbet turn a 'normal' size and give yourself the chance to fold to a shove, or hit on the river.

ChuckTs said:

It's a pretty standard barreling card; he's flatting all those underpairs and in general his range is weak (JJ+ often raises flop given how wet the board is), and obviously doesn't have an ace often, so betting's fine. We don't really need to make it this big though. He does have an ace some of the time, doesn't always shove when you barrel smaller (like $7), and probably folds well often enough with those underpairs to still have fold equity, so just cbet turn a 'normal' size and give yourself the chance to fold to a shove, or hit on the river.

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That

K thx. I wanted to max FE I guess.

ComplexPlaya said:

K thx. I wanted to max FE I guess.

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You might make him fold slightly more often, but now your bluff has to work way more often as well... maximizing the number of folds you get isn't the only thing to consider. How much you're risking in order to win what's in the middle is a key consideration.

Fold pre

Pascal LeFiscal said:

Fold pre

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You don't 3bet light ?

ComplexPlaya said:

You don't 3bet light ?

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Not from the small blind, I fold pre as well.

atlantafalcons0 said:

Not from the small blind, I fold pre as well.

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If we were deeper, I'd like a 3-bet. But I agree, OOP, against a guy who doesn't seem to like folding to 3-bets, I get out of the way.

This isnt the type of hand we want to 3bet light.

It is a speculative hand, it needs a high SPR. When we 3bet we never get called by worse. If called we are behind, and the SPR is terrible for our hand. suited connectors dont play well in 3 bet pot. It dosent even give us card removal.

ComplexPlaya said:

You don't 3bet light ?

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Stu_Ungar said:

This isnt the type of hand we want to 3bet light.

It is a speculative hand, it needs a high SPR. When we 3bet we never get called by worse. If called we are behind, and the SPR is terrible for our hand. suited connectors dont play well in 3 bet pot. It dosent even give us card removal.

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I thought suited connectors were standard for 3 betting. Of course we don't get called by worse, that's the nature of light 3betting - should be profitable if villain folds the right %, then even if you play fit/fold post flop you still make a profit. (not the case here, I generally 3-bet light people with high fold %, 75-80%+ etc.)

What would you recommend for light 3-betting in the blinds, small pockets and Axs hands ?

Stu_Ungar said:

This isnt the type of hand we want to 3bet light.

It is a speculative hand, it needs a high SPR. When we 3bet we never get called by worse. If called we are behind, and the SPR is terrible for our hand. suited connectors dont play well in 3 bet pot. It dosent even give us card removal.

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Meh. It's one of the best hand that i wouldn't flat with, so it's a decent choice for a 3bet. I do prefer a fold preflop here given villain and positions, but if we do decide to 3bet, this hand is a good choice.

Other than that, what Chuck said.

BelgoSuisse said:

Meh. It's one of the best hand that i wouldn't flat with, so it's a decent choice for a 3bet. I do prefer a fold preflop here given villain and positions, but if we do decide to 3bet, this hand is a good choice.

Other than that, what Chuck said.

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I dont think it plays well OOP. No drawing hand / implied odds hand does.

Most of the time, if called, you hold 8 high and no overcards.

When you do hit its harder to get stacks in OOP than IP.

I might 3bet . flat IP but dont really see the point playing OOP.

Now a hand like A4s I would certainly 3bet OOP. We have initiative, card removal, we fold out most aces we beat and hold a high card (that we never overvalue the kicker) so we can cbet flops we miss and still have some equity.

Given 100bb stacks (or there abouts) I dont see the point of 3betting SC OOP.. position is part of the value of a SC.

ComplexPlaya said:

I thought suited connectors were standard for 3 betting. Of course we don't get called by worse, that's the nature of light 3betting - should be profitable if villain folds the right %, then even if you play fit/fold post flop you still make a profit. (not the case here, I generally 3-bet light people with high fold %, 75-80%+ etc.)

What would you recommend for light 3-betting in the blinds, small pockets and Axs hands ?

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Ax hands, yes.

Small PP no.

With small PP, you either hit a set or you dont and when you dont you have very little PF equity, against the hands that call small PP are basically crushed.

So you end up 3betting too much from the blinds, then taking B/F lines postflop

Stu_Ungar said:

Ax hands, yes.

Small PP no.

With small PP, you either hit a set or you dont and when you dont you have very little PF equity, against the hands that call small PP are basically crushed.

So you end up 3betting too much from the blinds, then taking B/F lines postflop

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Yes those b/f lines in pots I 3-bet light are losing me money I've noticed. What about the FE preflop? If I do 3bet say 33 from the blinds against someone that folds 80% of the time to 3-bets, that's a profit right there.

And when I don't hit the set I can just c/f vs. most, unless an A or K gets on board that I can represent.

ComplexPlaya said:

Yes those b/f lines in pots I 3-bet light are losing me money I've noticed. What about the FE preflop? If I do 3bet say 33 from the blinds against someone that folds 80% of the time to 3-bets, that's a profit right there.

And when I don't hit the set I can just c/f vs. most, unless an A or K gets on board that I can represent.

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FE preflop.. you are picking up cents and losing dollars.

If the guy folds a lot then you can 3bet a lot (but the type of player who folds way too much is also the type who will get annoyed and start calling light)

If you havent 3bet in a while then yes 3bet 33 but when you decide that 33 is in your 3bet range you could be 3betting 2 or 3 orbits in a row. So I would put more high card type hands in your 3bet range so that you are less concerned about being called and then throw in a few bluff 3bets if you havent 3bet in a while.

ComplexPlaya said:

blinds against someone that folds 80% of the time to 3-bets, that's a profit right there.

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I would veer away from stats like F3bet

Look at a number like 80% and think "high fold rate"


The problem with being too concerned with the actual number is

1. It may not have converged (infact it most likely hasnt)
2. It dosent really show how the player deals with you.. if you 3bet more than most then will he still fold as much?

Because the maths will tell you you can auto profit.. but the number may not be accurate.

ComplexPlaya said:

I thought suited connectors were standard for 3 betting. Of course we don't get called by worse, that's the nature of light 3betting - should be profitable if villain folds the right %, then even if you play fit/fold post flop you still make a profit. (not the case here, I generally 3-bet light people with high fold %, 75-80%+ etc.)?

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Stu_Ungar said:

I dont think it plays well OOP. No drawing hand / implied odds hand does.

Most of the time, if called, you hold 8 high and no overcards.

When you do hit its harder to get stacks in OOP than IP.

I might 3bet . flat IP but dont really see the point playing OOP.

Given 100bb stacks (or there abouts) I dont see the point of 3betting SC OOP.. position is part of the value of a SC.

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Think Stu sums it up pretty good.

You've got a total of 6 3bets against him and only 3 flops, that's no where near a big enough sample.

I thought a small PP against a weak range (BTN open) is a good candidate for a 3-bet from the blinds? We should get lots of folds to make it damn near intsta-profitable?

Just stoved it and against a fairly tight continuing range 88-QQ suited broadways, we're 60/40. Obv we just fold to a 4-bet until we know player is capable of 4-betting light (even then probs fold and move table).

So best case scenario is he folds (and we're specifically trying to make him fold and have stats/reads to support it) or we flop a set (yay).
Worst is he 4-bets but if he's opening 40% and only 4 betting AK/QQ+ then we're getting lots of folds.

Somewhere in the middle is a 40/60 - 45/55 depending on if he likes to hold on to a few more hands in position.

Question is how much can we now make him fold post flop as that's what we're aiming to do pretty much every time we get a fold. This requires good hand reading ability and a foldy opponent of course.

You're omitting the times we 3bet, villain calls, and we flop nothing.

You want to pick hands that yield good postflop equity, and pairs are the absolute worst candidates. At least with T7o we can flop a pair against 66 or whatever. A4s, we can flop draws and outflop bigger pairs. With 78s, we can flop tons of draws.

ChuckTs said:

You're omitting the times we 3bet, villain calls, and we flop nothing.

You want to pick hands that yield good postflop equity, and pairs are the absolute worst candidates. At least with T7o we can flop a pair against 66 or whatever. A4s, we can flop draws and outflop bigger pairs. With 78s, we can flop tons of draws.

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We can also assume he doesn't flop anything most of the time too, and AT etc. will make up a large percentage of this? Or is position and his pocket pairs enough to overcome this? I suppose OOP we're going to have to make the pots quite large with double barrels and that's never good with it already being a 3-bet pot.

Assuming 6-max and a wide BTN range against semi good opponents, is folding 66-22 the right line? I think 77/88 start to become good enough to be able to play post-flop.

Calling OOP is an option too!!

Like you say, oop pots get big and you rarely hold anything, and almost every turn card will be one you didnt want to see with small PP's

When you 3bet A4s OOP you fold out most Aces that beat you. If yiu hit an ace you dont expect to get the money in, so domination isnt an issue (unlike AQ)

You can C-bet bluff the flop, get called and spike an ace / the nut FD so you can barrell more turns. With 33, you cbet and get called, unless the turn is a 3 you are done or forced into bluffing against a fairly strong range (he didnt fold to your 3bet).

Basically small PP's dont play well postflop.. and setmining in a HU pot OOP is also pretty bad.

With hands like 88/99.. call. Play some PF poker

Stu_Ungar said:

Calling OOP is an option too!!

Like you say, oop pots get big and you rarely hold anything, and almost every turn card will be one you didnt want to see with small PP's

When you 3bet A4s OOP you fold out most Aces that beat you. If yiu hit an ace you dont expect to get the money in, so domination isnt an issue (unlike AQ)

You can C-bet bluff the flop, get called and spike an ace / the nut FD so you can barrell more turns. With 33, you cbet and get called, unless the turn is a 3 you are done or forced into bluffing against a fairly strong range (he didnt fold to your 3bet).

Basically small PP's dont play well postflop.. and setmining in a HU pot OOP is also pretty bad.

With hands like 88/99.. call. Play some PF poker

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A agree A4s plays better post-flop. Because I've been 3-betting small PP's I've been 3-betting all pairs. I'll stop now though, I can see the disadvantages, and 77-99 play pretty well post-flop.

Do you play 6-max?