€10 NLHE Full Ring: Did I play this scared?

Thinker_145

Thinker_145

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This is possibly the first time ever I have proceeded with caution pre flop with KK. That's because KK vs AA has always been one of the most disheartening hands for me and the prospect of losing 250 BB to AA just scared me. Not that my bankroll isn't enough but I know that it is possible I could go into a berserk tilt mode if that really happened.

So I am not asking whether I should have these factors in mind when playing poker, I know they shouldn't be a factor but what I am really asking is that is it really inconceivable to sometimes get cautious with KK? I mean a 250 BB deep UTG is 4 betting us? We got to seriously worry about AA isn't it? He does seem like a loose player but still you never know. And it's also full ring to make matters worse. I remember Daniel once said that one should never feel bad about losing your entire stack pre with KK and one should never be folding it pre. But I also remember Phil Ivey once just called a 4 bet with KK and later gave the reason that he didn't 5 bet because the stacks were too deep.

Anyways lets get to the hand.

iPoker - €0.10 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 40 BB (VPIP: 41.38, PFR: 10.34, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 29)
UTG+2: 35 BB (VPIP: 4.00, PFR: 2.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 50)
Hero (MP): 243.7 BB
MP+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
CO: 38.1 BB (VPIP: 24.07, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 54)
BTN: 136.4 BB (VPIP: 18.05, PFR: 4.51, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 135)
SB: 149.5 BB (VPIP: 20.07, PFR: 6.19, 3Bet Preflop: 3.27, Hands: 2,108)
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 242.4 BB (VPIP: 33.58, PFR: 22.39, 3Bet Preflop: 9.38, Hands: 135)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:club: K:heart:

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 13 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG raises to 23 BB, Hero calls 10 BB

Flop: (47.5 BB, 2 players) 6:heart: 2:club: 4:diamond:
UTG bets 33.2 BB, Hero calls 33.2 BB

Turn: (113.9 BB, 2 players) 8:club:
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: (113.9 BB, 2 players) Q:club:
UTG bets 56.9 BB, Hero calls 56.9 BB

Hero shows K:club: K:heart: (One Pair, Kings) (Pre 70%, Flop 86%, Turn 93%)
UTG shows K:spade: A:heart: (High Card, Ace) (Pre 30%, Flop 14%, Turn 7%)
Hero wins 212.6 BB

The size of his 4 bet screamed DO NOT fold lol which made me further cautious. I have no idea how he reacts if I 5 bet him, would surely send some serious alarms. I firmly believe that no matter how deep the stacks a 5 bet has to be a shove and in this case it would be too much of a bet, nothing can call other than AA unless we are against fish. After the flop I obviously got as much as I could possibly have.

I have 2 questions mainly. What would you do after he 4 bets? And what would you do once he checks the turn?
 
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thatgreekdude

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This is possibly the first time ever I have proceeded with caution pre flop with KK. That's because KK vs AA has always been one of the most disheartening hands for me and the prospect of losing 250 BB to AA just scared me. Not that my bankroll isn't enough but I know that it is possible I could go into a berserk tilt mode if that really happened.

So I am not asking whether I should have these factors in mind when playing poker, I know they shouldn't be a factor but what I am really asking is that is it really inconceivable to sometimes get cautious with KK? I mean a 250 BB deep UTG is 4 betting us? We got to seriously worry about AA isn't it? He does seem like a loose player but still you never know. And it's also full ring to make matters worse. I remember Daniel once said that one should never feel bad about losing your entire stack pre with KK and one should never be folding it pre. But I also remember Phil Ivey once just called a 4 bet with KK and later gave the reason that he didn't 5 bet because the stacks were too deep.

Anyways lets get to the hand.

iPoker - €0.10 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 40 BB (VPIP: 41.38, PFR: 10.34, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 29)
UTG+2: 35 BB (VPIP: 4.00, PFR: 2.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 50)
Hero (MP): 243.7 BB
MP+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)
CO: 38.1 BB (VPIP: 24.07, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 54)
BTN: 136.4 BB (VPIP: 18.05, PFR: 4.51, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 135)
SB: 149.5 BB (VPIP: 20.07, PFR: 6.19, 3Bet Preflop: 3.27, Hands: 2,108)
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 242.4 BB (VPIP: 33.58, PFR: 22.39, 3Bet Preflop: 9.38, Hands: 135)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K<font color='black'>♣</font> K<font color='red'>♥</font>

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 13 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, UTG raises to 23 BB, Hero calls 10 BB

Flop: (47.5 BB, 2 players) 6<font color='red'>♥</font> 2<font color='black'>♣</font> 4<font color='red'>♦</font>
UTG bets 33.2 BB, Hero calls 33.2 BB

Turn: (113.9 BB, 2 players) 8<font color='black'>♣</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: (113.9 BB, 2 players) Q<font color='black'>♣</font>
UTG bets 56.9 BB, Hero calls 56.9 BB

Hero shows K<font color='black'>♣</font> K<font color='red'>♥</font> (One Pair, Kings) (Pre 70%, Flop 86%, Turn 93%)
UTG shows K<font color='black'>♠</font> A<font color='red'>♥</font> (High Card, Ace) (Pre 30%, Flop 14%, Turn 7%)
Hero wins 212.6 BB

The size of his 4 bet screamed DO NOT fold lol which made me further cautious. I have no idea how he reacts if I 5 bet him, would surely send some serious alarms. I firmly believe that no matter how deep the stacks a 5 bet has to be a shove and in this case it would be too much of a bet, nothing can call other than AA unless we are against fish. After the flop I obviously got as much as I could possibly have.

I have 2 questions mainly. What would you do after he 4 bets? And what would you do once he checks the turn?

his 4bet sizing was whack, we always 5bet here, see if he comes over the top or flats, if he flats we can usually rule AA out of his range, if he 6bets us then i think because he's slightly loose it's a shove. Like you i would be reluctant to shove 250BBS deep but.. after he checks turn i think we should be value betting here everytime, AK/QQ/JJ/1010 all within his range that we're missing value from, granted he probably would of just mucked to a turn bet and wouldn't of spewed at river but we can't be results oriented, gotta get that value from his range!!
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

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Of course we shouldn't be results oriented that's why I made this thread to begin with because I know results oriented wise this hand went as good as it could have.

Now you say we can 5 bet but what I am not so sure of is how much should we 5 bet? I suppose we could make it 60 BB? I am really not a fan of minimum raises.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk
 
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thatgreekdude

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Of course we shouldn't be results oriented that's why I made this thread to begin with because I know results oriented wise this hand went as good as it could have.

Now you say we can 5 bet but what I am not so sure of is how much should we 5 bet? I suppose we could make it 60 BB? I am really not a fan of minimum raises.

Sent from my Moto G using Tapatalk

yup in the region of 50-60 is good.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Way too passive, get it in preflop.
 
akaRobbo

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Im 5bet shoving this so often. His 4bet sizing is BS and he's obviously a fish, who could call with QQ or AK easily...
 
Thinker_145

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Im 5bet shoving this so often. His 4bet sizing is BS and he's obviously a fish, who could call with QQ or AK easily...
I have seen fish min raise with AA plenty of times so that was why I was worried. But ya even if he did have AA it won't be bad play on our part just the nightmare cooler.
 
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spookah123

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If you play KK scared of AA I think you'll lose money over the long run. I would 5-bet shove here, and if he turns over the aces I'd call it a cooler.
 
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